Israel - Hamas War V

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

No, it isn't the same. 

So?

It would be like me finding out I'm Cuban in my late 40's and then feeling bold enough to tell people who have been raised in Cuban culture their entire life that I understand the culture just as well if not better. That's precisely what you just did. 

[Fragile Bird]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'm sorry guys, for the brief moment of levity, but a strand of this conversation brought this to mind:

 

Omg, the next clip up is The Palestinian Chicken Place. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It would be like me finding out I'm Cuban in my late 40's and then feeling bold enough to tell people who have been raised in Cuban culture their entire life that I understand the culture just as well if not better. That's precisely what you just did. 

I have no dog in this “fight” but your reply here just made me feel very curious about something. Would your opinion be the same if Kalnak’s opinions and positions were exactly the same as yours? 

[Craving Peaches]

With regards to the hospital strike, Channel 4 reports that a preliminary analysis conducted by several NGOs suggests that the strike did not come from the direction the IDF claimed.

[Rippounet]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It would be like me finding out I'm Cuban in my late 40's and then feeling bold enough to tell people who have been raised in Cuban culture their entire life that I understand the culture just as well if not better. That's precisely what you just did. 

Maybe someone discovering Cuban culture from the outside would, in fact, have the ability to offer insight and perspective that someone having been raised "in it" would never dream of. Maybe it would be wise to listen to them, just in case.

The gatekeeping is getting tiresome, and I'm in a personal position where my patience with it will be extremely limited. Knock it off. Please.

[Tywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have no dog in this “fight” but your reply here just made me feel very curious about something. Would your opinion be the same if Kalnak’s opinions and positions were exactly the same as yours? 

Yep. 

21 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Maybe someone discovering Cuban culture from the outside would, in fact, have the ability to offer insight and perspective that someone having been raised "in it" would never dream of. Maybe it would be wise to listen to them, just in case.

Do you really think me taking four years of French classes makes my opinion on French culture matter that much, especially when talking to someone from France? And would you listen to me if I acted like I understood it just as well if not better than you? I don't think it's gatekeeping to say don't do that. 

[Ran]

I'm getting a sense that Channel 4 is extremely pro-Palestine. Their presenter's claim that "several experts" analyzed the audio turning into two unnamed "independent Arab journalists", and now this. Forensic Architecture is a subsection of Al Haq, an organziation that has had ties to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and had its access to credit card donations online revoked because of these ties. The fact that tweets from the group and its members refer to the IDF as the "IOF", a pejorative, shows their bias. Also, the director of Forensic Architecture was refused entry into the US last year by the Department of Homeland Security. So, with that context...

First, Forensic Architecture's analysis claims it was likely an artillery shell fired by Israel, and it's true, Israel has used 150mm artillery... but as far as I can see, Israeli artillery has been used to fire into the areas relatively near the borders of Gaza rather than deep inside of it.  Besides, this is the kind of crater you get from a 155mm shell, a 150mm isn't going to be much smaller.

That aside, the photo they use from Ukraine to suggest that it was a similar type of artillery... it's a  GRAD rocket crater, not an artillery shell at all. Which would imply, hey, this is what a rocket crater might look like. 

Finally, no addressing of the fireball, which seems likeliest to be the result of unburnt propellant from the rocket, or the the fact that they're making the assumption of a shallow trajectory rather than what you'd expect from a tumbling rocket (like the one seen here) that came almost from straight above, and of course ignoring evidence suggesting the rocket people believe may be responsible had begun to change direction back towards the way it came when the rocket flamed out, which throws the whole thing into further confusion. 

The analysis of the audio is interesting, but pardon me if I'd like to see some truly independent organization that has no dog in the fight commenting on it. 

Oh, also, Hamas had plenty of time to present the shrapnel fragments that could prove it was an Israeli munition or rocket, but.. instead, it looks like any fragments were carted away. Hmm.

I understand skepticism of the IDF, the US, France, and other European intelligence agencies. Or of the NY Times or the AP. But you need to have equal skepticism to Palestinian NGOs, especially those with ties to terrorist organizations.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Ran

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It would be like me finding out I'm Cuban in my late 40's and then feeling bold enough to tell people who have been raised in Cuban culture their entire life that I understand the culture just as well if not better. That's precisely what you just did. 

First off, all credit to my wife who discovered and did all this research - she's an incredible genealogist and has found some pretty incredible stuff. She was the one who put me in touch with that side of my family and in turn gave me pictures of that side of the family that we had never seen before. If folks are interested in having someone check things out on their family hit me up on dm.

Second, no - that is what you did. I claimed only that my experience and other jews out there is different. I don't claim to speak for you or anyone else. That would be as ridiculous as someone who grew up in Minnesota their whole life as a jew saying that their experience matched what being in Israel is like.

Third, my experience of being Jewish is definitely not the same as someone raised Jewish or even raised with the awareness of it, but one part I'll highlight is the immediate knowledge that there are people out there who will want to kill you and your kids for that trait. That has very much changed my lived experience and that of my family. It has changed how my wife sees the world just because of our kids. Talking with others who had an experience similar to mine - being part of the Jewish diaspora and not being directly part of being raised Jewish (either religious or ethnic) - that fear and awareness is also quite genuine and altering.

And that is also part of being Jewish.

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Do you really think me taking four years of French classes makes my opinion on French culture matter that much, especially when talking to someone from France? And would you listen to me if I acted like I understood it just as well if not better than you? I don't think it's gatekeeping to say don't do that. 

I probably would not listen to someone who'd taken four years of French classes. But, I would listen to someone telling me they'd discovered they were descended from French people and had spent four years studying the culture to understand their heritage. I'd be curious about what books they'd read and what conclusions they'd reached.
And I know that I'm sincere because, as a matter of fact, I have been curious about how foreigners see French culture in the past. It's not just talking about it with English-speaking people, I've also read Stephen Clarke's A Year in the Merde (that hardly gives a good image of France btw), and watched a lot of humorist Sebastian Marx (American guy living in Paris whose skits are about French culture seen from the point of view of a newcomer).

Now, would I listen to their input in the wake of the Bataclan terrorist attacks, especially if they started criticising laïcité (French secularism) ? There are times when it is easier to listen than others, and I won't pretend I'm always the patient and respectful type. I'd like to think I wouldn't question their "Frenchness" though. I think I'd have to be deeply upset to do that.

[Tywin et al.]

32 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Second, no - that is what you did. I claimed only that my experience and other jews out there is different. I don't claim to speak for you or anyone else. That would be as ridiculous as someone who grew up in Minnesota their whole life as a jew saying that their experience matched what being in Israel is like.

Your fixation with me being from Minnesota is strange, especially since I've told you before I've lived in other states and abroad. And Yes, Kal, that's exactly what you did.

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Third, my experience of being Jewish is definitely not the same as someone raised Jewish or even raised with the awareness of it, but one part I'll highlight is the immediate knowledge that there are people out there who will want to kill you and your kids for that trait. That has very much changed my lived experience and that of my family. It has changed how my wife sees the world just because of our kids. Talking with others who had an experience similar to mine - being part of the Jewish diaspora and not being directly part of being raised Jewish (either religious or ethnic) - that fear and awareness is also quite genuine and altering.

And that is also part of being Jewish.

It's a new fear you found you'd otherwise never have lived with. Raising that point is extremely frustrating for people who have lived with it all their lives and it being a core part of their identity since they were little kids.

Look, this is the last thing I'm going to say, I've have been speaking with a lot of friends and family who are Jewish in the last few weeks. Some live in Israel, so are from there and live throughout the US and Europe, some have never stepped foot in Israel. Pretty much all of them hate the current Israeli government, think Palestinians have been mistreated and deserve their own state and some kind of justice. I also think most of them would be somewhere between mortified and furious reading these threads. The comment above would piss a lot of them off to be sure. 

[Conflicting Thought]

And you have other jewish people commenting on this threads that are not furious at what is being said here (except for the minimizing of palestinian suffering, genocide appologia, and the very worrying opinions on ethnostates). So...

[Tywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I probably would not listen to someone who'd taken four years of French classes. But, I would listen to someone telling me they'd discovered they were descended from French people and had spent four years studying the culture to understand their heritage. I'd be curious about what books they'd read and what conclusions they'd reached.
And I know that I'm sincere because, as a matter of fact, I have been curious about how foreigners see French culture in the past. It's not just talking about it with English-speaking people, I've also read Stephen Clarke's A Year in the Merde (that hardly gives a good image of France btw), and watched a lot of humorist Sebastian Marx (American guy living in Paris whose skits are about French culture seen from the point of view of a newcomer).

Which is a sentiment I perfectly agree with. However, that's not exactly what I'm hinting at. If I were French I'd love to talk to someone who took four years of classes on French language, history and culture and be happy to field their questions. I'd be happy to talk about a number of subjects and how the person sees them. If they were visiting France I'd love to show them around if they asked. However what I would not tolerate is them acting like they know France and French history as well if not better than me.

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Now, would I listen to their input in the wake of the Bataclan terrorist attacks, especially if they started criticising laïcité (French secularism) ? There are times when it is easier to listen than others, and I won't pretend I'm always the patient and respectful type. I'd like to think I wouldn't question their "Frenchness" though. I think I'd have to be deeply upset to do that.

That's the tough thing though, most open-minded, thoughtful people like to think that, but life gets more complicated when it becomes a reality.

8 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

And you have other jewish people commenting on this threads that are not furious at what is being said here (except for the minimizing of palestinian suffering, genocide appologia, and the very worrying opinions on ethnostates). So...

Who has minimized Palestinian suffering? Hasn't basically everyone said they've been wronged, both historically and right now? I also don't believe anyone has been apologizing genocide. All I've said is if you want to call what's happening a genocide you also have to say Hamas would love to do that to Jews and they're more vocal about it. And lastly, the mods asked us not to get into a debate about ethno-states, but it is fair to point out the definition used with regards to Israel is also pretty applicable to a lot of countries. 

[SeanF]

There seems to be an idea that anti-Zionist Jews (in the sense of Jews who wish that Israel ceased to exist), are a big strand of Jewish opinion, rather than the vanishingly small minority that they are, in reality.

 

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

those who have been part of the new York Jewish community.

Um, the would be the New York Jewish communities! There a many, and they are not homogenous by any means, in anything!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Received another email from the Israeli friend commented on above.  Her heart is breaking, breaking, breaking.  She wonders if even telling people such all of us here, what HER experience of this war is, and that of her community, friends and allies is worth doing.

I couldn't read what she sent, including a short video from her fone, of a missile landing on her beach, without tearing up.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Zorral

[Kalbear]

36 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Your fixation with me being from Minnesota is strange, especially since I've told you before I've lived in other states and abroad. And Yes, Kal, that's exactly what you did.

I didn't say you, I said someone from Minnesota. 

As to whether or not that's what I did - that certainly wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I said that I identify as being a Jew, and said that Jews have different opinions and are not universal. That is what you appear to have taken great umbrage about. 

36 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's a new fear you found you'd otherwise never have lived with. Raising that point is extremely frustrating for people who have lived with it all their lives and it being a core part of their identity since they were little kids.

Here's the thing that was especially scary about it - I wouldn't have known to live with the fear but as it turns out it would have mattered regardless. My identification with my ethnicity isn't as important as other people's knowledge of it as far as my safety. But yes, I agree - how I live with it is different than how it would be if I knew about it as a kid. 

Again, so? 

That's also true about how an Israeli would deal with it, or how a Jew from Soviet Russia who emigrated would deal with it, or how a Hasidic Jew from New York would deal with it. And all of those viewpoints are valid. None of them are the sole way of being an authentic Jew. 

36 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Look, this is the last thing I'm going to say, I've have been speaking with a lot of friends and family who are Jewish in the last few weeks. Some live in Israel, so are from there and live throughout the US and Europe, some have never stepped foot in Israel. Pretty much all of them hate the current Israeli government, think Palestinians have been mistreated and deserve their own state and some kind of justice. I also think most of them would be somewhere between mortified and furious reading these threads. The comment above would piss a lot of them off to be sure. 

And there are other Jews in this thread that are not pissed off about it at all. I'm sorry that that comment would make them angry for some reason, and I'm happy to talk to them if they come to this forum, but that doesn't discount that there are a whole lot of other Jews out there who disagree. 

As I said before I've ALSO talked with a lot of Jewish friends, including several in Israel. They've been nothing but gracious towards my experience and my sharing, and my worry. They've shared concerns with me during Charlottesville and the synagogue attacks, talked to me about how to introduce my children to being Jewish, and one introduced me to their Rabbi. Are those experiences also invalid? Are their opinions invalid because they talked to me?

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Which is a sentiment I perfectly agree with. However, that's not exactly what I'm hinting at. If I were French I'd love to talk to someone who took four years of classes on French language, history and culture and be happy to field their questions. I'd be happy to talk about a number of subjects and how the person sees them. If they were visiting France I'd love to show them around if they asked. However what I would not tolerate is them acting like they know France and French history as well if not better than me.

Who said I know it better than you? Like, seriously, where is that coming from? I even specifically said that I don't equate the two. I say that I have a different and valid experience. I haven't questioned your Jewishness or your background or anything like that; I've taken at face value that you have a valid experience as a Jewish person, despite knowing virtually nothing about your history, family, or experience. Should I question that? 

As far as I can tell what you appear to be objecting to is me actually saying that I am Jewish. Which is entirely gatekeeping. 

Again I'll state that one of the most important ways that I and my children are Jewish is that people who want to kill Jews would want to kill me for being Jewish. That seems to be a pretty important characteristic. Regardless of how I identify and how my kids identify we are now going to be targets. This, by the way, is why I took so much difference with you saying that Jews just want a 'safe' place. There is no 'safe' place. There is no secure place. There are just degrees, unless you advocate wiping out everyone else.

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Who has minimized Palestinian suffering? Hasn't basically everyone said they've been wronged, both historically and right now?

If you're wanting to use the same standard that you use towards Israelis - no, you've minimized suffering repeatedly because you didn't mention it in every post as balancing out the opinion on what was happening to Israelis too. 

 

[Werthead]

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There seems to be an idea that anti-Zionist Jews (in the sense of Jews who wish that Israel ceased to exist), are a big strand of Jewish opinion, rather than the vanishingly small minority that they are, in reality.

The terminology is getting strained. I was talking to a friend who says they are considered anti-Zionist by some more hard-line family members, but only because they favour the two-state solution and an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank (or, if they remain, with correspondingly valuable land swaps with the potential Palestinian state). The goalposts seem to be moving on the terminology.

[Ran]

CNN has pitched in with a very thorough discussion of the Al-Ahli explosion, including some footage I've never seen before which shows debris in the suspected crater that was gone by the time later footage came around. Could be some piece of metal from one of the cars.... or maybe a part of a rocket body, hard to say.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The terminology is getting strained. I was talking to a friend who says they are considered anti-Zionist by some more hard-line family members, but only because they favour the two-state solution and an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank (or, if they remain, with correspondingly valuable land swaps with the potential Palestinian state). The goalposts seem to be moving on the terminology.

Nobody who supports Israel's existence is anti-Zionist, nor would most such people self-identify as such. More than 4/5 of US Jews, most of whom vote Democrat, most of whom historically support a two state solution/Palestinian state consider Israel essential or important to what being Jewish means to them.  Anti-Zionist Jews, Jews who self-identify as anti-Zionist, are a very small minority of Jews in the US and the World. They are tokenized and given much greater attention and import than they have among Jews. And yes, unless they have a Jewish mother, many such Jews and Jewish orgs promoted by them are not actually considered Jewish by any of the movements liberal or conservative (Reform, Conservative/Masorti, Orthodox, etc).

Edited October 21, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

and I'm sorry you took it that way. 

Life tip, never say this. Just say I'm sorry, even if you think you're 100% right. That said, I will try to be more respectful as well. 

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Here's the thing that was especially scary about it - I wouldn't have known to live with the fear but as it turns out it would have mattered regardless. My identification with my ethnicity isn't as important as other people's knowledge of it as far as my safety. But yes, I agree - how I live with it is different than how it would be if I knew about it as a kid. 

And that's where my frustration roots itself. I've had to think about this since the time I literally have had memories. Being Jewish is part of the construct of my entire identity. It's bothersome to put it mildly to hear you say learning in midlife that you're Jewish and that now you're having the same thoughts, in part because I had to learn how to get over them as a kid. I'm lucky in the sense that I don't look Jewish in any way, but I have a lot of friends and family who do and they've spent their entire lives thinking about this. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't get the sense you've been told throughout your life you look like a Jew. If so, that does change how I'd approach some of my comments, but if not, you really don't need to state this new feeling of dread unless you're determined to wear a Star of David necklace. Honestly I wouldn't recommend doing so even if you can't completely pass. 

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 or how a Jew from Soviet Russia who emigrated would deal with it

Well speaking as someone whose great-grandfather had to flee Russia because he was Jewish, along with most of his family, not exactly. He was the lucky one that kept going west and yes, found himself deployed at an Army base in Duluth, MN. Most of his family found out the hard way why either staying in Russia or central Europe didn't go so well for them. That's a big reason I don't have any interest in looking into my family tree. What's the point? 


Anyways, I'm not saying you're not Jewish (and that can lead to another conversation about how some Jews view the topic, with the most extreme ones saying neither of us are), but just be a bit more sensitive about a touchy subject at this time. I don't doubt you fear for your kids' safety, but that said it's not a horror you or they have known their entire lives. Hopefully when they're older they'll live in a period where that isn't the case, but sadly I doubt it. Best advice I can give you is to teach them to not look away from the past and find strength in knowing people can overcome the worst that humanity has to offer. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Varysblackfyre321]

I do hate this weaponization of anti-semitism to try and silence anyone who’d dare criticize Israel for its conduct and deliberate equivocation of being hostile to Israel to hostility to all Jews. 
 

 Israel’s social media attack on Greta  appeared for a  lack of a better word appeared to be boomerisc.

“Like I can imagine reading this along side “The terrorist won’t  give you a safe place!” On Facebook.

Ukraine which has actually been invaded by a superpower and lost tens of thousands of people have managed to make their social media presence witty and disciplined for the most part not getting into Twitter spats who actually do hate Ukraine, say they deserve to be invaded, or deny they were invaded but insist that should still give up. 
I can’t help but suspect this is another sorid attempt to ingratiate themselves to the culture warrior right.