UK Politics: Tory Closing Down Sale- Everything Must Go

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

7 hours ago, polishgenius said:

And meanwhile thanks to Deutsche Bahn's investment in several British railway operators you fine people are funding my 48 Euro monthly ticket valid for almost all non-express trains in the entirety of Germany. 

Good to know. I'll be moving to Germany in a week. 

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

Good to know. I'll be moving to Germany in a week. 

 

 

Neat. 

Dunno if you have a job lined up already but if you do, check with them - they might have a process in place to fund it for you (mind does lol). 

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

What do you expect? he wants us to be America, worshipping wealth, and all that goes along with that - from privatised health, poor people starving and pedestrians considered an underclass (though he may not go as far as gun ownership - probably because he'd fear a revolution than any ethical qualms though)

And for all older people to die and get out of the way and stop consuming resources.

Why yes, we saw these sentiments advocated on this very board!

‘Nature’s way of dealing with old people’: the damning messages revealed to Covid inquiry

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/31/natures-way-of-dealing-with-old-people-the-damning-messages-revealed-to-covid-inquiry

Quote

 

.... Notes from the former chief scientist Sir Patrick Vallance in August 2020: [Boris Johnson was] obsessed with older people accepting their fate and letting the young get on with life and the economy going. Quite bonkers set of exchanges.”

In December 2020, Vallance noted: “Numbers are going up & up. PM told he has been acting early and the public are with him (but his party is not). He says his party ‘thinks the whole thing is pathetic and Covid is just Nature’s way of dealing with old people – and I am not entirely sure I disagree with them. A lot of moderate people think it is a bit too much.’ Wants to rely on polling. Then he says, ‘We should move things to Tier 3 now.” ....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/30/boris-johnson-mad-if-he-did-not-think-whatsapps-would-become-public-civil-servant

Quote

 

.... Boris Johnson asked why damage was being inflicted on the economy during the pandemic “for people who will die anyway soon” in a meeting with Rishi Sunak, the Covid inquiry was told on Monday. 

The note was from a meeting during which Johnson was believed to have said: “We’re killing the patient to tackle the tumour. Large ppl [taken to mean large numbers of people] who will die, why are we destroying economy for people who will die anyway soon.”....

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

Nice.

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't know why they wanted old people to die, that's their voter base. I guess the good thing is old people are a renewable electoral resource, and becoming more conservative with age seems to be an immutable truth.

[Liffguard]

7 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I guess the good thing is old people are a renewable electoral resource, and becoming more conservative with age seems to be an immutable truth.

That isn't necessarily the case. And the conservatives could have some real long-term demographic problems as a result.

Behind a paywall, so some snippets:

Quote

If millennials’ liberal inclinations are merely a result of this age effect, then at age 35 they too should be around five points less conservative than the national average, and can be relied upon to gradually become more conservative. In fact, they’re more like 15 points less conservative, and in both Britain and the US are by far the least conservative 35-year-olds in recorded history.

...

This is borne out by US survey data showing that, having reached political maturity in the aftermath of the global financial crisis, millennials are tacking much further to the left on economics than previous generations did, favouring greater redistribution from rich to poor. Similar patterns are evident in Britain, where millennials are more economically leftwing than Gen-Xers and boomers were at the same age, and Brexit has alienated a higher share of former Tory backers among this generation than any other.

...

The data is clear that millennials are not simply going to age into conservatism.

 

[Heartofice]

7 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

That isn't necessarily the case. And the conservatives could have some real long-term demographic problems as a result.

Behind a paywall, so some snippets:

 

It's not surprising that someone would be more in favour of redistribution of wealth if they don't have much wealth, and the housing issue which has plagued the UK (and a lot of other western economies) means a lot of people have very little actual wealth, but a lot of debt, through no real fault of their own. 

Having said that, I don't know how sticky those feelings will be once people age up and do get a house and a chunk of wealth they want to protect. Also, it's unsurprising that so many don't want to vote conservative, given how utterly shit they are and have alienated almost their entire voter base. That could change if the Tories ever got their act together (a big if), or seemed a more attractive prospect in opposition to a Labour party during an economic crisis.

Where people stand on social and cultural issues will probably change over time too. 

[BigFatCoward]

19 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It's not surprising that someone would be more in favour of redistribution of wealth if they don't have much wealth, and the housing issue which has plagued the UK (and a lot of other western economies) means a lot of people have very little actual wealth, but a lot of debt, through no real fault of their own. 

Having said that, I don't know how sticky those feelings will be once people age up and do get a house and a chunk of wealth they want to protect. Also, it's unsurprising that so many don't want to vote conservative, given how utterly shit they are and have alienated almost their entire voter base. That could change if the Tories ever got their act together (a big if), or seemed a more attractive prospect in opposition to a Labour party during an economic crisis.

Where people stand on social and cultural issues will probably change over time too. 

How do you see that happening realistically?  Some will, but a far higher % of people than in previous generations are never going to own their own house or have meaningful assets. 

A huge % of my income is already going towards trying to protect my kids from that future, but most people don't have that opportunity.   

Edited November 1, 2023 by BigFatCoward

[Heartofice]

8 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

How do you see that happening realistically?  Some will, but a far higher % of people than in previous generations are never going to own their own house or have meaningful assets. 

A huge % of my income is already going towards trying to protect my kids from that future, but most people don't have that opportunity.   

Unfortunately probably through inheritance, or when people pay off their mortgages their feelings change. Unless some major changes happen in the housing and labour markets it's probably the only way.

[BigFatCoward]

There doesn't appear to be any consensus about the number of houses we are short, but all the information suggests its a fuckton.  Even if there was the political will, is there the logistical ability to deliver?  Materials, Labour, Land, where is it going to come from. 

Why does everything have to get so fucking terrible before anyone does anything about it, where is the long term planning?

[Liffguard]

Something to consider is that the gutting of social care, combined with the inadequacy of the state pension, is going to mean that a lot of wealth that might have been passed down to millennials and gen-z will instead be spent on long-term care in old age. And given how many care homes are owned by private equity firms, this in effect is just another transfer of wealth to the already wealthy.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

There doesn't appear to be any consensus about the number of houses we are short, but all the information suggests its a fuckton.  Even if there was the political will, is there the logistical ability to deliver?  Materials, Labour, Land, where is it going to come from. 

Why does everything have to get so fucking terrible before anyone does anything about it, where is the long term planning?

Well in terms of pure supply and demand there is clearly a massive deficit of supply and a huge level of demand. The issues are getting companies to actually build houses, making it easier for them to do so by making land available and planning easier. It also means accepting that house prices can actually fucking go down, they don't just go up permanently. 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

making house prices go down really upsets those Tory Voters.

and anyone who recently bought a house and mortgauged to the max.

 

So its a vote loser for Tories.  And even Labour will struggle to gain more votes than they loose if they made house prices go down a lot since younger people vote less than older.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Jfc

 

[Fragile Bird]

Just curious here, is the phrase “Morton’s fork” still used in England? Henry VII’s Archbishop of Canterbury justified Henry’s taxes by saying if you were poor you were living carefully and saving, so you could afford the taxes, and if you were rich and living extravagantly you obviously had money and could afford the taxes.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well in terms of pure supply and demand there is clearly a massive deficit of supply and a huge level of demand. The issues are getting companies to actually build houses, making it easier for them to do so by making land available and planning easier. It also means accepting that house prices can actually fucking go down, they don't just go up permanently. 

I wouldn't boil down the housing crisis to supply and demand. There's a lot of gouging going on while at the same time property is getting bought up rapidly by large firms and they're trying to make everyone they can rentees because that's more profitable for them. It's one of many ways capitalism has gone sideways and its cruelest aspects are just getting more entrenched. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I wouldn't boil down the housing crisis to supply and demand. There's a lot of gouging going on while at the same time property is getting bought up rapidly by large firms and they're trying to make everyone they can rentees because that's more profitable for them. It's one of many ways capitalism has gone sideways and its cruelest aspects are just getting more entrenched. 

It's more that supply doesn't equal demand because the system is broken. Housing feels like one big ponzi scheme and everyone trying to get in on it now is the sucker who missed the boat.

It's not just the firms causing that to happen, it's a host of reasons, such as housing being one of the only places to get an ROI in a low interest world, a cultural fixation on homeownership, lack of home building to meet demand.  

It's been a ticking timebomb for years and the Tories are going to be one of the first political victims of it.

[BigFatCoward]

Letting in London is insane, my letting agent for my flat just contacted me and recommended i put the rent up by 26% at the end of the current contract (i've always slightly under charged so its permanently rented and I've got good reliable tenants). 

Now i get why i might want to put up the rent, but they only get 9% of any increase, so £33, why would they want to shaft someone that much for so little?  It may be that they are just looking out for me, but i doubt it somehow. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

 

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

Letting in London is insane, my letting agent for my flat just contacted me and recommended i put the rent up by 26% at the end of the current contract (i've always slightly under charged so its permanently rented and I've got good reliable tenants). 

Now i get why i might want to put up the rent, but they only get 9% of any increase, so £33, why would they want to shaft someone that much for so little?  It may be that they are just looking out for me, but i doubt it somehow. 

yeah, but that's £33 from hundred, maybe thousands of other landlords on their books