Israel - Hamas War IX

[IheartIheartTesla]

As someone once said of academia, the arguments are so vicious since the stakes are so low. Sometimes I think the same of internet forum arguments. 

Anyway, my own opinion has always been that it is difficult to do proportionate response to terror attacks (two wars by the US in the Middle East is a great example of this), and so that I am presuming has guided the responses of many to what Israel was contemplating. In the end hopefully everyone is thankful the death toll will end up being lower from preventable causes at least (such as starvation, dehydration etc.)

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Which apparently didn't happen

 

I listened to the Kinsellacast podcast that was posted today.  Warren Kinsella is one of the Canadian journalists who viewed the raw footage made available to journalists and governments.  I won't post the link here; but you can find him on google.  He documents what he saw.  I'll stand by what I said previously.

[Hmmm]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I listened to the Kinsellacast podcast that was posted today.  Warren Kinsella is one of the Canadian journalists who viewed the raw footage made available to journalists and governments.  I won't post the link here; but you can find him on google.  He documents what he saw.  I'll stand by what I said previously.

Not just that. Israeli authorities as well as the teams of first responders who had to clean up after the massacre have published large amounts of image- and video material on the web. I do not advise to look it up though, unless you really are sure you can handle it. Some people actually get traumatized by seeing such things.

There are also huge amounts of newspaper articles and interviews with forensic teams and survivors who describe what they have seen or experienced.

There is no point in linking all of that here. Anyone who actually reads up on the October 7 massacre will find that there is indeed ample evidence of people being burned alive, and more besides. There is no point in getting into such discussions with some forum guy, and doing a bunch of work just to post links and evidence for stuff that anyone who is actually interested can find on their own. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Hmmm

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Uh, I’m pretty sure in the first thread you were very sceptical about the description of the atrocities committed on Oct. 7, and actually you were the very first person to say Israelis were guilty of genocide, and you thought what happened was “a lid blowing off a pressure cooker”. You went on to say “The violence in Gaza is systemic, generational, genocidal, and mostly unwitnessed by westerners”.

I'm sorry, where was I skeptical? You've done a good job cherry picking my comments to fit your narrative, so please quote me on that one.

As for the rest, I stand by it, because it's true. Palestinians have suffered greatly, over generations. Not sure how that makes me in ANY FUCKING WAY an anti-Semite. It's a simple fucking fact. 

I could accuse YOU of being a racist however, given your statement about not caring if every Palestinian was brutally murdered. In fact, here i go. You're a racist. 

And since my "pressure cooker" comment has now been referenced a few times (mostly by Ran), let me explain. The sheer brutality of the attacks we were seeing on the 7th, the inhumanity by random Palestinian men, and Hamas fighters, who stormed the border and butchered hundreds of people, felt to me like an explosion, an orgy, of bent up hate and aggression. Ergo my cooker comment. I never condoned those actions. or supported them. They made me feel physically sick. I'm perfectly content to see all of those men, the ones responsible for those actions, removed from our gene pool.  AND ONLY THEM. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Relic

[Zorral]

48 minutes ago, Ran said:

I assumed most of the people (most) on this forum did so purely rhetorically and didn't actually think it would happen, but what do I know.

Um, again, you are stating that we are conflating Israel per se with Bibi&Likud ilks and their record and their statements, which, you know that other Israel protests and wants stopped too.  Sheesh.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Zorral

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Some people actually get traumatized by seeing such things.

I would be traumatized.  

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Only people who believe the worst of Israel genuinely believed they were just going to starve to death hundreds of thousands.

I believe based on evidence that if it wasn't for allies pushing heavily on Israel that it would have been much worse. 

Not that its done. We won't know how many died of preventable causes for months.

 

[Conflicting Thought]

2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I never posted the above because I kept reading the first couple of threads to see the wild and crazy comments being made.

You posted you wanted to kill every single palestinian, get the fuck out of here wih your holier than thou bullshit. You've posted some pretty horrible shit, racist shit so please, a little self reflection before  calling other peoples comment wild and crazy.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Conflicting Thought

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Hmmm said:

Not just that. Israeli authorities as well as the teams of first responders who had to clean up after the massacre have published large amounts of image- and video material on the web. I do not advise to look it up though, unless you really are sure you can handle it. Some people actually get traumatized by seeing such things.

There are also huge amounts of newspaper articles and interviews with forensic teams and survivors who describe what they have seen or experienced.

There is no point in linking all of that here. Anyone who actually reads up on the October 7 massacre will find that there is indeed ample evidence of people being burned alive, and more besides. There is no point in getting into such discussions with some forum guy, and doing a bunch of work just to post links and evidence for stuff that anyone who is actually interested can find on their own. 

Yep, no reputable sources. Good work continuing to spread falsehoods and inflammatory rhetoric.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I would be traumatized.  

So...you didn't see these pictures then. But you're okay making other people look them up to prove your point for you?

Interesting.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I listened to the Kinsellacast podcast that was posted today.  Warren Kinsella is one of the Canadian journalists who viewed the raw footage made available to journalists and governments.  I won't post the link here; but you can find him on google.  He documents what he saw.  I'll stand by what I said previously.

you care about dead babies do you, how about dead palestinain babies, mutilated, burned, crushed, etc...havent see you comment about how those babies deserve justice and how we should do everything in our power to stop that. By any means necessary

Edited November 12, 2023 by Conflicting Thought

[Craving Peaches]

The BBC reports that, according to a doctor from al-Shifa,  another one of the premature babies has sadly passed away. I really hope the remaining babies, and indeed everyone else in the hospital, can be safe as soon as possible.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I believe based on evidence

Good to know.

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

By any means necessary

[Kalbear]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Good to know.

I guess in the most scientific way, but falsifiable hypothesis are not a requirement for using evidence. And we have loads of evidence that the US has been quite important in tempering Israeli response and opening up aid corridors. Would Israel have done it on their own? I guess that's impossible to know, but again - lots of evidence at the time to indicate from their own spokespeople that they would not be doing anything like what they have without that pressure. 

Not sure what standard of evidentiary proof you're looking for here. This is pretty good for trial standards. Do you think Israel would have done the same things at the same pace without that pressure? Did they do that in beirut?

[TrueMetis]

The IDF deliberately maims unarmed protesters. Why wouldn't I believe the worst of them?

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

I'm perfectly content to see all of those men, the ones responsible for those actions, removed from our gene pool.  AND ONLY THEM.

That's very nice of you, but the world simply does not work that way. This is the entire point of using human shields: it is very nearly impossible to remove the people responsible without also hurting the people they are hiding amongst and behind. And the moment anyone tries to remove the people responsible and inevitably runs into this human shield problem, people like you immediately cry foul despite not having any understanding whatsoever of how urban warfare works.

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, Altherion said:

people like you immediately cry foul despite not having any understanding whatsoever of how urban warfare works.

With all due respect, how are you any more qualified than Relic on the matter of urban warfare? Are you in the military? Have you studied urban warfare?

Some of the people killed were seemingly not human shields anyway, because they were not near the 'terror infrastructure' (unless the whole of Gaza counts).

Edited November 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

By any means necessary

Are hostage taking and killing civilians at a music festival is within the ambient of “By any means necessary”?

[Bael's Bastard]

No longer surprised at how people can deny the atrocities of the Holocaust considering how supposedly "normal" people have defaulted to skepticism and denial of Hamas' atrocities since the week they were committed.

[Bael's Bastard]

Also, as much as the Hamas attack makes clear Jews can still be killed in Israel, most Jews I've talked to still feel a hell of a lot safer in Israel than among the unhinged vitriol and hatred in the diaspora. Antizionists who don't want Jews in Israel/Palestine need to consider how unsafe they are making life for Jews in the diaspora.