Israel - Hamas War IX

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

No Scot, after my rant against ethnostates I definitely think it would be fine as long as it was a different group, that's absolutely what I was getting at.

GFYS.

Would Palestine as a multi-ethnic State with a Muslim-Arab majority respect the rights of Jews to live and worship in such a State?

[Tywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

1) No, and 2) they shouldn't be when they are. Unless we are using very different definition of ethnostate.

Like if you don't think that China doesn't get shit for its policy of Han domination, than I don't know what to tell you. China is not and cannot be an ethnostate unless they commit massive amounts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Which they are in fact trying to do. IDK I think that's bad. Other apparently disagree.

How often do you see people in the West complain about China, India, Japan etc. being enthostates? The term almost never comes up. Meanwhile, people are quick to call Israel an ethnostate. again, why do you think that is? 

And no, China is not regularly referred to as an ethnostate.

Quote

The very idea that if Israel is not an ethnostate than this requires a Palestinian ethnostate is clearly nonsense, but it is very telling about you're position. Because if a Palestinian ethnostate requires ethnic cleansing, and you're right it would that's why they're bad, then so to does a Jewish one, one which will very likely try to remove as many Jews as possible. But who cares right?

No it's not. It's an openly stated goal to make Jews a minority in Israel and the same people saying this also want to remove and/or kill all the Jews from the area. The same threat from the Jewish side has never been made to the same degree. Not even close. 

[Tywin et al.]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Would Palestine as a multi-ethnic State with a Muslim-Arab majority respect the rights of Jews to live and worship in such a State?

Let's speed this up: No. 

[Fragile Bird]

5 hours ago, Relic said:

I'm sorry, where was I skeptical? You've done a good job cherry picking my comments to fit your narrative, so please quote me on that one.

As for the rest, I stand by it, because it's true. Palestinians have suffered greatly, over generations. Not sure how that makes me in ANY FUCKING WAY an anti-Semite. It's a simple fucking fact. 

I could accuse YOU of being a racist however, given your statement about not caring if every Palestinian was brutally murdered. In fact, here i go. You're a racist. 

Bullshit. I said “part of my brain is saying, if Israeli soldiers cross into Gaza and just gun down people in the streets I won’t give a shit. The other part says two wrongs don’t make a right, but Hamas has many hostages and I don’t expect them to live”.

I quoted you word for word, but you couldn’t be bothered to do the same. Because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Your comments say more about yourself than they do about me.

That’s a bloody far distance from “not caring if every Palestinian was brutally murdered”. And you know what? No Israeli soldiers crossed the border chasing the Hamas terrorists and gunning down everyone they saw. I congratulate the IDF and how disciplined their soldiers are, I’m not sure  if the soldiers of many other countries would be so disciplined in the same circumstances.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Let's speed this up: No. 

Indeed.  Will @TrueMetis acknowledge that?

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ripp… you know I love you man… but that sounds far too much like apologia for the anti-semitic vitriol I’m seeing fly from the left and the right.

Please tell me that isn’t what this is.

It hadn't even crossed my mind that it could be read that way.

I see it, thanks to you. I'm not even sure what to say. I'll take it as you giving me an opportunity to elaborate.

Just as you can despise Islamism without being islamophobic, you can despise Israeli policies without being anti-semitic.

The reverse puzzles me though. Why would you so easily read the statement that Israeli violations of international law fuel hatred for Jews worldwide as anti-semitic? To me it sounds like a brutally honest and accurate description of a common psychological phenomenon with obvious political implications. It's not flattering for anyone in the story, but as a rule people are quick to essentialize, and they will read the policies of a state as reflecting the "mentality" of a people. I certainly don't excuse this kind of stupidity (I absolutely loathe it), but I can't pretend it's not there, and I do think heads of state should take it into account more - for better or for worse, it is part of their duty.
There are many ways to fight hatred. The golden rule is always a good place to start imho. If we all agree that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are going anywhere, perhaps an interesting thought experiment would be to think of the Palestinians as Jews.
Seriously, try it. Try changing the characteristics you ascribe to each people, including the history. For instance, if it were the Palestinians who'd been the victims of the Nazis, or if the Israelis had lost a war and ended up in refugee camps, would it change anything?

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Would Palestine as a multi-ethnic State with a Muslim-Arab majority respect the rights of Jews to live and worship in such a State?

It's an interesting question. And there's a simple way to answer it: what's the historical record? Have we had multi-ethnic States with a Muslim-Arab majority ever respect the rights of Jews, or Christians for that matter?
If yes, when was that, and what would that mean?
 

[Tywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Indeed.  Will @TrueMetis acknowledge that?

It's his call. I just tend to think people don't understand the externalities of some of the positions they take. 

[Rippounet]

7 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

Id say that there are a number of factors affecting it.

1) Among Muslim religious zealots, a belief that Israel is occupying the Holy Land.

2) Among Christian religious zealots, a general dislike of Jews going back millennia.

3) Among left-wing extremists who dislike the West, a belief that Israel is a settler nation forcefully occupying and displacing the native population. 

Let's add 4) Many anti-semites ascribe to Judaism certain beliefs and certain actions that have little to do with being a Jew (whether we're talking about ethnicity or religion).
I'd honestly be at a loss to define what a Jew is supposed to be, so I can only conclude that people hate an idea of what a Jew is.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Just as you can despise Islamism without being islamophobic, you can despise Israeli policies without being anti-semitic.

One of the things I do online, I did it tonight, when I see people taking shity actions by small groups and spreading responsibility to whole populations… is point out how wrong it is to do that.  

For example:

https://x.com/adamtesh3/status/1723856644444922122?s=46

I can see that you are talking cause… rather than making an actual apologia.  But I can see others using that kind of sentiment as apologia for the hatred and vitriol being leveled at Jews.  That’s why I asked what I asked.

[TrueMetis]

You know what, I'm done. I was going to try and respond to this bad faith nonsense but there's no point, some of your minds are so poisoned that your only response to "ethnic cleansing is bad" is "ah but what if the other side did it?"

I'll decide tomorrow if I'm keeping my account here, but I won't be responding to these threads anymore.

[Zorral]

33 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Have we had multi-ethnic States with a Muslim-Arab majority ever respect the rights of Jews, or Christians for that matter?
If yes, when was that, and what would that mean?

Muslim Spain. At times Spanish Spain -- at least until 1492.  The Ottoman Empire.  The Mamluk Egyptian state -- though with the Crusades and the aggressive Norman Sicilian regime, not the Christians. Many of the various eastern Muslim empire/states, though again, not the Christians, as well as the various Muslim states  on the African side of the Mediterranean, the Sahel and West African -- until the Christians arrived.  Various emperors of the Byzantine Empire.  In fact, the Babylonians. The absolutely least tolerant and most religiously absolute, again, are the European Christian states.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Zorral

[Zorral]

26 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I won't be responding to these threads anymore.

I'm sorry to see you go.  But lordessa, how painful for you to read this stuff, even to see it discussed, even if it is being done in good faith.  With your North America's First People heritage, none of this is abstract, but part of the struggle.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Zorral

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The absolutely least tolerant and most religiously absolute, again, are the European Christian states.

I'm shocked. /s

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

You know what, I'm done. I was going to try and respond to this bad faith nonsense but there's no point, some of your minds are so poisoned that your only response to "ethnic cleansing is bad" is "ah but what if the other side did it?"

I'll decide tomorrow if I'm keeping my account here, but I won't be responding to these threads anymore.

FWIW, I don’t think arguments are being made in bad faith. I think everyone's hurting right now, and sometimes it's difficult to fully empathise or see things from someone else's perspective when you're hurting. Kind of like how it's difficult to know what exactly is happening b/c of the fog of war, only here it's the fog of hurt. 

But I don’t think you should quit or leave altogether. 

[Conflicting Thought]

56 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

This part I can’t agree on. The very fact that Jews are disproportionately targeted amongst the diaspora, suggests that the problem far exceeds the current situation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 
 

Id say that there are a number of factors affecting it.

1) Among Muslim religious zealots, a belief that Israel is occupying the Holy Land.

2) Among Christian religious zealots, a general dislike of Jews going back millennia.

3) Among left-wing extremists who dislike the West, a belief that Israel is a settler nation forcefully occupying and displacing the native population. 

what is the nakba if not forcefull displasment?

[Darzin]

33 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Muslim Spain. At times Spanish Spain -- at least until 1492.  The Ottoman Empire.  The Mamluk Egyptian state -- though with the Crusades and the aggressive Norman Sicilian regime, not the Christians. Many of the various eastern Muslim empire/states, though again, not the Christians, as well as the various Muslim states  on the African side of the Mediterranean, the Sahel and West African -- until the Christians arrived.  Various emperors of the Byzantine Empire.  In fact, the Babylonians. The absolutely least tolerant and most religiously absolute, again, are the European Christian states.

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth being an exception which  was very tolerant of religious minorities hence why most of the European Jews ended up living within it's borders.

After the actual Crusade the Crusader states themselves were about as tolerant as their Muslim neighbors and adopted system similar to Jizya.

The Almohads, Some Yemeni rulers and the Ayyubids being less tolerant examples in Islamic history.

Also while historically the Islamic world was far more tolerant of religious diversity than Christian Europe the institutions, philosophy and culture that made that tolerance possible have been severely degraded by modernity and colonialism. And what has risen to take it's place lacks the high minded tolerance and confidence of precious eras. The modern post colonial era has seen a collapse of minority populations in the Middle East and unfortunately I don't see that reversing.  

Also by these standards Israel is exceptionally tolerant they have an Arab Muslim minority with full political and legal rights as citizens. None of the Arab countries have a Jewish minority anymore. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Darzin

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, Darzin said:

The  Almohads

Most definitely not them! They weren't tolerant even of other Muslims, as such very rigid strict puritanical types are whatever their faith. Everybody in Spain hated and feared them -- wanted them to go back to Africa and stay there!

Hmmm. what about the Moghul empire?

Edited November 13, 2023 by Zorral

[Conflicting Thought]

https://portside.org/2020-01-18/hindu-nationalists-are-transforming-india-israel-style-ethnostate

ethnostates, such a good idea, never a bad thing resulted from an ethnostate. im sure that if there is a jewish and palestinan/arab ethnostates all will be resolved and nothing bad will come of it.

 

i cant fucking belive people are defending ethnostates right now. crazy shit

Edited November 13, 2023 by Conflicting Thought

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Conflicting Thought said:

https://portside.org/2020-01-18/hindu-nationalists-are-transforming-india-israel-style-ethnostate

ethnostates, such a good idea, never a bad thing resulted from an ethnostate. im sure that if there is a jewish and palestinan/arab ethnostates all will be resolved and nothing bad will come of it

How do you propose to resolve this situation if not via a two State solution?  If Israel is disbanded and Palestine becomes a majority Arab Muslim area do you believe the rights of Jews to live and worship in that new State would be respected?

[fionwe1987]

Stepping back into this with some hesitation, but I've read beautiful writing from Israelis and Palestinians imagining some kind of single state with a binational identity, either by having federated regions along roughly the current borders, or by having something of a mini-EU.

I'm sure there are those here who will be crying "impractical" almost before I hit "Submit Reply", but the reason for its impracticality today is the circle of violence various folks here have been decrying and desperately hoping for an end for. 

Certainly, each passing day of this war makes any such solution seem remote, but the fact remains, whatever a unitary state does or does not do to address the wrongs of the past, it is certainly possible to design one to reduce future harms, and if that is a worthy aim, then the option merits some exploration.