Israel - Hamas War XII

[Darryk]

I still hate what Israel is doing in Gaza but the ridiculous explosion of anti-Semitism around the world (from left and right) is making me want to close ranks.

[Crixus]

21 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Obviously it is allowed and possible to critizise Israel.

when is a critic antisemitic  and why do I (and a lot of other people) think Greta qualifies?

I went to our governmental sites to see if I could find a useful definiton of antisemitism and they  link to the IRHA site about this:

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

there are examples for antisemitism  e.g.:

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

 

 

 

 

I think several posters have proven what a reach your accusation of antisemitism against Greta T is (not to mention that analogy about black people, which was... interesting, to say the least) but again, where did she do any of the above (I am genuinely baffled)? 

Criticising Zionism in terms of occupying and expanding into Palestinian land and a LOOOONGG list of other shit that plenty of people on these threads have outlined with proof in painstaking detail, is not the same as saying the actual existence of Israel is a racist endeavour (which it is not, I believe it has a right to exist, but it has no right to oppress Palestinians; even a 5 year old, if slightly objective, can ascertain this fairly easily). 

Double standards - again, what absolute horseshit. In fact, they are doing pretty much whatever the fuck they want: an ever-increasing civilian death count, displacement (often several times) of 80% of the population, 7000+ innocent children killed, scarce medical aid, food, water and basic amenities, directing people to move (through comms that often don't work due to little/no electricity or internet) to yet another hellhole falsely labelled as a 'safe zone', whereas it should actually be called 'cesspits of disease with more exciting opportunities for ethnic cleansing' (see al-Mawasi), and much, much more. Yet, the US, UK and even EU (despite the timid statements made by Macron and a few others) are wholeheartedly supporting them. If you mean double standards in terms of favourable ones, I agree. If not, as a 'democratic, developed' country they had bloody well better be held to standards. 

Comparisons to Nazis: ok, but what if they are using similar tactics? Should past suffering  give you a magical free pass to commit similar atrocities on others?

If someone does or says something genuinely antisemitic, they absolutely deserve to be called out and condemned. However, brandishing the threat of antisemitism against any criticism of Israel, or going through tortuous contortions to equate banal statements to antisemitism doesn't cut it, sorry. It's a bullying, silencing tactic. 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Crixus

[Crixus]

20 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I’m quoting this post because I see there has been a rather deathly silence (I’m using the words intentionally) in this thread about this post. None of you read it, eh? Go back to the first thread and reread your comments about what dishonest liars the Israeli authorities were about atrocities committed. Uh-huh.

I have to admit some of the details are so intensely disturbing and disgusting I did not get to the end of the article. I had read reports about the atrocities committed very early on. I’m sure all of you remember what I said about part of my brain not caring if revenge was taken. After reading this account I am absolutely astonished there wasn’t an immediate revenge raid, and at one point I said it showed how professional the IDF were that they held back. I also recall someone posting a laugh emoji on that post. Funny, eh.

I don’t believe it’s useful for heads of state to describe or compare people to “animals”, certainly you won’t stop the man in the street from doing so, it’s a word commonly used to describe people who commit shocking crimes. As I was reading the article I thought about those of you who expressed outrage when Netanyahu used the term. I always suspected he did so because the reports of what the Hamas soldiers did to people were placed before him. I can’t say I blame him for the word. Unfortunate, yes, but not surprising.

It's absolutely horrific, evil and barbaric. I struggled to read through it, and cannot imagine the terror, anguish and suffering these victims have experienced. My heart goes out to them. 

I never doubted this had happened, because it's been part of war since time immemorial - why doubt this instance? The men who did this deserve the worst possible punishment. 

Still doesn't mean Netanyahu and his ilk get to label all Palestinians as animals - you may argue he was referring to Hamas only, but several of his statements as well as others from his cabinet prove otherwise. 

Re revenge: would you apply the same standards to Palestinians who have seen their families blown apart over the last 2 months? 

[Zorral]

Israel says humanitarian aid isn't coming to Gaza because the humanitarian organizations have failures.  Israel isn't responsible for the lack of water, food, fuel and medical supplies getting into Gaza.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/08/israel-gaza-hamas-aid-un/

Quote

 

The intense fighting in the south as well as parts of the north have disrupted communications and travel across the Gaza Strip and made the provision of aid largely impossible, according to Martin Griffiths, the U.N. undersecretary general for humanitarian affairs.

“We do not have a humanitarian operation in southern Gaza that can be called by that name anymore,” he said late Thursday in Geneva, emphasizing that despite Israeli assurances, there were no safe zones which were needed “to protect civilians and thus to provide aid to them. But without places of safety, that plan is in tatters.”

He said the provision of aid had become opportunistic, with agencies doing it where they could but not necessarily reaching those most in need: “Its erratic, it’s undependable, and frankly, it’s not sustainable.” ....

.... Col. Elad Goren, head of the civil department for the Israeli agency overseeing the Palestinian territories, said Thursday that the crossing would be opened “in the next few days” to aid inspection of incoming aid, while emphasizing that the amount of aid coming is well below Israel’s capacity to inspect it.

“Fewer trucks are going through every day, because of limitations on the part of international aid agencies in Gaza,” Levy insisted. He said there were “no limitations on Israel’s side in terms of the provision of food, water, medicine and shelters to the people of Gaza, on the contrary we have we have surplus capacity of inspections.”

Griffith, however, has emphasized that the obstacles to distributing aid include the constant fighting, the inability of employees to move around Gaza and trucks being blocked. ....

 

 

[Rippounet]

A quick one, because I've got a lot of work these days:

Today's op-ed in Le Monde explains (in a nutshell) that Netanyahu's plan is (and always was) to kill or traumatize as many Palestinians as possible before expelling them (or as many as possible) to Egypt and re-occuyping Gaza.
Biden is in the way of that, so Israel will be continuing its "war against Hamas" until the 2024 US elections to see if the plan can be finalised thanks to the re-election of our dear-friend Mr Drumpf.

No offense guys, but I wish the best of luck to those who would defend Israeli policies in the coming year. That's going to be a long year. I know you're coming at this from a good place, but (again, no offense), you just didn't have the full picture.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Today's op-ed in Le Monde explains (in a nutshell) that Netanyahu's plan is (and always was) to kill or traumatize as many Palestinians as possible before expelling them (or as many as possible) to Egypt and re-occuyping Gaza.

Weren't many of us here saying this was the case but were told there was no evidence for it (despite the leaked plan and various statements made by Israeli officials)?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Relic]

35 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

A quick one, because I've got a lot of work these days:

Today's op-ed in Le Monde explains (in a nutshell) that Netanyahu's plan is (and always was) to kill or traumatize as many Palestinians as possible before expelling them (or as many as possible) to Egypt and re-occuyping Gaza.
Biden is in the way of that, so Israel will be continuing its "war against Hamas" until the 2024 US elections to see if the plan can be finalised thanks to the re-election of our dear-friend Mr Drumpf.

No offense guys, but I wish the best of luck to those who would defend Israeli policies in the coming year. That's going to be a long year. I know you're coming at this from a good place, but (again, no offense), you just didn't have the full picture.

This certainly seems to be where it is heading. Was talking to a friend in Israel yesterday who basically said something along the lines of "why won't Egypt take the Palestinians? We cannot allow Gaza to return to how it was." He's not a fan of Netanyahu, but he supports a single state solution, now. 

[Zorral]

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Weren't many of us here saying this was the case but were told there was no evidence for it (despite the leaked plan and various statements made by Israeli officials)?

Yes there were!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, Relic said:

This certainly seems to be where it is heading. Was talking to a friend in Israel yesterday who basically said something along the lines of "why won't Egypt take the Palestinians? We cannot allow Gaza to return to how it was." He's not a fan of Netanyahu, but he supports a single state solution, now. 

Because for decades no one has wanted to take them in or really help them in general. This is going to be a problem going forward. Gaza has to be rebuilt after the war, but I can't see Israel allowing people from Gaza in. So where do they go if Egypt also won't let them in and Arab states in the region don't seem too interested in that either? 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Heartofice]

19 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/dozens-of-hamas-terrorists-surrender-to-israeli-soldiers-report-says/news-story/a8cf3777e1f065871fcb31191f321013

The linked story is kind of a great example of the information problem I've been banging on about, Israel says these are photos of surrendered terrorists, Hamas says they're civilians with one news agency claiming one guy as one of their journalists. And regardless of either of those things, you've got pictures of blindfolded naked men kneeling there while soldiers stand above them. Unless humiliation is the point, this seems like a bad move in general.

 

Isn't think a pretty normal thing to do to enemy combatants?  Especially if they are likely to be holding weapons or explosives or posing a danger. 

[mormont]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Isn't think a pretty normal thing to do to enemy combatants? 

No.

It’s quite rare, attracts condemnation and is against the rules of war, which protect enemy combatants from(among other things) degradation, intimidation, public curiousity, and cruel or inhumane treatment. Any of those would apply to the treatment in the pictures above. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Because for decades no one has wanted to take them in or really help them in general. This is going to be a problem going forward. Gaza has to be rebuilt after the war, but I can't see Israel allowing people from Gaza in. So where do they go if Egypt also won't let them in and Arab states in the region don't seem too interested in that either? 

They go back to Gaza, and not doing so is Ethnic Cleansing which is an Act of Genocide.

This constant question of ... why X Arab country is simply that they are Palestinians and so belong in Palestine. They may share alot but they are their own people, Palestinians, and not just intercharable as any Arab.

 

I think their is a lot of self-serving in this but has validity.

Edited December 8, 2023 by TheKitttenGuard

[Kalbear]

Especially since most Palestinians don't actually want to flee. And especially since the ones who did in the Nakba have not as a rule been allowed to return to their previous land. One of the single biggest obstacles to a lasting peace is precisely this notion - the right of return - and the idea that it is somehow such a horrible thing that other Arab countries aren't helping Israel carry out ethnic cleansing given that history is really weird to me. 

If Israel wants this sort of thing they'll need to do a lot more than just ask nicely for people to leave; they'll need to have guarantees of returning to their homes after the war is over, have money put aside for refugees and supporting them, have other countries guarantee it, have timelines set, etc. I don't think they have any interest in doing that because I think the goal is to make Gaza so undesirable that everyone has no choice but to leave. They want to create a refugee crisis. 

[benderschweiz]

17 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

They go back to Gaza, and not doing so is Ethnic Cleansing which is an Act of Genocide.

This constant question of ... why X Arab country is simply that they are Palestinians and so belong in Palestine. They may share alot but they are their own people, Palestinians, and not just intercharable as any Arab.

 

I think their is a lot of self-serving in this but has validity.

Israel is salting the earth at Gaza.  Palestinians will probably return there but in conditions that make the old open air prison seem like paradise.  Who will fund rebuilding when it is likely to be razed again with any future attacks?  There would have to be a long term peace deal in place which doesn't seem likely. 

[Celestial]

3 hours ago, Crixus said:

 

Still doesn't mean Netanyahu and his ilk get to label all Palestinians as animals - you may argue he was referring to Hamas only, but several of his statements as well as others from his cabinet prove otherwise. 

 

The reaction of different Palestinian media/intellectual figures on channels like Al Jazeera did not help.

For instance:

Marwan Bishara: From hubris to humiliation: The 10 hours that shocked Israel | Opinions | Al Jazeera : "The Palestinians have made it clear today that they would rather fight on their feet for justice and freedom than die on their knees in humiliation. It is high time the Israelis heed the lessons of history."

Haidar Eid: "Gaza 2023: Our Warsaw Uprising moment | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The resistance movements in Gaza, right and left, have decided to turn the table upside down. They have given the Palestinian struggle a new impetus, a clear direction towards liberation and decolonisation."

Muhannad Ayyash: "Palestinians are showing that they will not be erased | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The Palestinian revolutionary spirit that shows the foundational violence and injustice of this colonial world order and insists on liberation and the creation of an alternative system will outlast all of the powerful states who are currently ruling the world and plotting to erase Palestine from the map"

Mariam Barghouti: "On October 7, Gaza broke out of prison | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The Palestinians have struck Israel where it has struck Palestinians for more than 75 years: lives and land. The Israeli arrogance and sense of security that it can oppress, kill and steal land with impunity have been shattered. We’ve been held hostage by Israel for decades. We’ve been prisoners in our land for generations. But this October, the wimpy kid finally got his punch and the bully is now shaken."

These are all the opinion pieces published by Palestinian authors on Al Jazeera in the immediate aftermath (the first week) of the attack. In four rather lengthy opinion pieces, there is not a single sentence expressing regret, there is not a single acknowledgment that maybe the "liberators" went too far.  Not one. These persons are not Hamas spokesmen. They are not (publicly, at least) affiliated with Hamas. Yet they showed they are perfectly willing to embrace a Hamas-style genocidal liberation campaign.

It was argued that ordinary Gazan cannot speak against Hamas. Agreed. But Bishara, Eid, Ayyash and Barghouti are not under Hamas' thumb.

Fighting for your freedom is fine. But even when fighting against an oppressor, there are certain lines which should not be crossed and the liberation should not involve slaughtering toddlers and geriatrics in cold blood. The oppressed do not have the right to retaliate against oppressors with indiscriminate slaughter of this sort, just like someone does not have the right to fight back against the mafia by butchering their underage children.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

37 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

They go back to Gaza, and not doing so is Ethnic Cleansing which is an Act of Genocide.

This constant question of ... why X Arab country is simply that they are Palestinians and so belong in Palestine. They may share alot but they are their own people, Palestinians, and not just intercharable as any Arab.

 

I think their is a lot of self-serving in this but has validity.

But if you take it at face value that close to half of Gaza is wrecked (and likely more damage will happen), how do they go back there when it's in the process of being rebuilt? There has to be a functioning way to house a lot of people and doing so in Gaza for everyone will be hard. There's no chance Israel will take anyone in given what has happened, so who else is going to step up in the short term? 

[csuszka1948]

14 minutes ago, Celestial said:

The reaction of different Palestinian media/intellectual figures on channels like Al Jazeera did not help.

For instance:

Marwan Bishara: From hubris to humiliation: The 10 hours that shocked Israel | Opinions | Al Jazeera : "The Palestinians have made it clear today that they would rather fight on their feet for justice and freedom than die on their knees in humiliation. It is high time the Israelis heed the lessons of history."

Haidar Eid: "Gaza 2023: Our Warsaw Uprising moment | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The resistance movements in Gaza, right and left, have decided to turn the table upside down. They have given the Palestinian struggle a new impetus, a clear direction towards liberation and decolonisation."

Muhannad Ayyash: "Palestinians are showing that they will not be erased | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The Palestinian revolutionary spirit that shows the foundational violence and injustice of this colonial world order and insists on liberation and the creation of an alternative system will outlast all of the powerful states who are currently ruling the world and plotting to erase Palestine from the map"

Mariam Barghouti: "On October 7, Gaza broke out of prison | Gaza | Al Jazeera" "The Palestinians have struck Israel where it has struck Palestinians for more than 75 years: lives and land. The Israeli arrogance and sense of security that it can oppress, kill and steal land with impunity have been shattered. We’ve been held hostage by Israel for decades. We’ve been prisoners in our land for generations. But this October, the wimpy kid finally got his punch and the bully is now shaken."

These are all the opinion pieces published by Palestinian authors on Al Jazeera in the immediate aftermath (the first week) of the attack. In four rather lengthy opinion pieces, there is not a single sentence expressing regret, there is not a single acknowledgment that maybe the "liberators" went too far.  Not one. These persons are not Hamas spokesmen. They are not (publicly, at least) affiliated with Hamas. Yet they showed they are perfectly willing to embrace a Hamas-style genocidal liberation campaign.

It was argued that ordinary Gazan cannot speak against Hamas. Agreed. But Bishara, Eid, Ayyash and Barghouti are not under Hamas' thumb.

Fighting for your freedom is fine. But even when fighting against an oppressor, there are certain lines which should not be crossed and the liberation should not involve slaughtering toddlers and geriatrics in cold blood. The oppressed do not have the right to retaliate against oppressors with indiscriminate slaughter of this sort, just like someone does not have the right to fight back against the mafia by butchering their underage children.

 

 

 

Yes, the truth is that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87 

It's no coincidence that no election has been held by the Palestinian Authority in West Bank for many years - Fatah is afraid they would lose their power.

Edited December 8, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

I find the occupation and ethnic cleansing Israel has been doing in the West Bank for decades pretty horrifying - and I think the radicalization of Palestinians and rise of Hamas is probably the consequence of that - , but I don't see what else could they do in Gaza here and now.

What would the 'ceasefire' people advocate for result in? Realistically, the Palestinians would keep supporting Hamas stronger than ever, and they would be able to regain strength and launch terror attacks again. At this point, the Palestinians are so radicalized that it's difficult to see how would they live 'peacefully' with Israel in a theoretical two-state solution. 

[csuszka1948]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But if you take it at face value that close to half of Gaza is wrecked (and likely more damage will happen), how do they go back there when it's in the process of being rebuilt? There has to be a functioning way to house a lot of people and doing so in Gaza for everyone will be hard. There's no chance Israel will take anyone in given what has happened, so who else is going to step up in the short term? 

 

Nobody. It's almost never mentioned, but no Arab states are willing to take in refugees who fled from territories occupied by Israel and Egypt has not opened its borders to Gaza due to the security risks. It's pretty much unprecedented that entire generations live their lives in refugee camps.

That's how the Palestinian identity was created in the first place, and it's in the interest of the Arab countries to keep it that way, because they can center their cause around the plight of the oppressed.

[TheKitttenGuard]

26 minutes ago, benderschweiz said:

Israel is salting the earth at Gaza.  Palestinians will probably return there but in conditions that make the old open air prison seem like paradise.  Who will fund rebuilding when it is likely to be razed again with any future attacks?  There would have to be a long term peace deal in place which doesn't seem likely. 

Funding most likely Israel, U.S, E.U, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, China, and U.K.

The Palestinians in Gaza have a Right to Return to Gaza.

If I really had answer I should be over there since people are being killed. For me, these were know issues, what Israel doing to Gaza could be done at anytime, and does have a Responsibility that what is being done was Neccessary Actions to eliminate Hamas and not Collective Action and Punishment of the Palestinians.