Shogun: More like Shogood (Spoilers 4 days post episode release, show spoilers only)

[Arakasi]

Sure that’s valid but I thought they were setting Ochiba up as a manipulator and it’s obvious that Ishido is more controllable than Toranaga. She had power in the current situation and had to know if Toranaga won she’d have no power anymore.

[Pellert]

Well, it’s a wrap. As a note, I have never read (or heard of..) the book, so show-watcher only. 
 

In general, loved this show immensely from ep 1-9. Final episode was also good, in one way, but at least personally for me, it lacked some depth and punch. 
 

To me, the whole undercurrent of the show is how big of a manipulator and puppetmaster Toranaga is, and then (and I think it’s mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread) the big reveal is a two-minute conversation about his masterplan… I kind of think I see what they are trying to do, and in some way it is quite clever (in the sense that simplicity sometimes can be quite forceful I guess), but at least for me personally it was not a home-run. I wouldn’t require a huge battle or long action-scenes, but at least spending more than 3-4% of the episode on it would be good (I also felt the turnaround to lady Ochiba was explained in a very superficial way, with some other parts also a bit underplayed..). 
 

I still rate it as a 5 out of 6 show without hesitating, but until the finale it was an undisputed 6/6 for me, so a bit of a let-down unfortunately. 
 

(but what do I know…  ) 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Arakasi said:

I don’t know how a show can be both too fast and too slow but it managed it.

You nailed it! Thanks.

[Nictarion]

Shout out to Tadanobu Asano who really killed it in this. I think Yabushige ended up being my favorite part of the show. 

I thoroughly enjoyed it overall, even if the finale was a bit of a letdown. 

[Arakasi]

I enjoyed it too. It’s not even really the fault of the show runners for that since it pretty much follows the novel. But having the climax like that I just don’t think is terribly satisfying. The climax was really Marikos death and for the reasons I said up thread that really didn’t hit home for me.

edit: Was talking with my wife about it and some of it for sure is a cultural divide. We don’t have that same sort of cultural view of sacrificing yourself in that way. Now I guess you can just say she’s a warrior and this is her way of dying on the battlefield for Toranaga. But the lack of relationship between her and John detoothed the moment.

Edited April 27 by Arakasi

[Veltigar]

For me, this series started a lot stronger than it ended. From a bang to a whimper more or less. @Arakasi has a point that the show was able to go both too fast and too slow at the same time. I think the political machinations in particular were poorly handled and a I also felt like the character work was pretty shoddy near the end.

I'm trying to give the show its due, without referring to the novel constantly, but to illustrate the flaws I think I can only make a book comparison:

Spoiler

In the novel, it's quite clear that Lady Ochiba gets cold feet after Mariko's sacrifice frees the hostages. At that point, she knows many nobles who were cowed before would throw their lot in with Toronaga, as their family members were safe now. Not to mention that Lord Kiyama, as the most powerful of the regents after Ishido and a Catholic with family ties to Mariko to boot would also be liable to jump ship. Add to that the forced decision of abandoning Osaka Castle, their greatest material asset to give a battle on Toronaga's terms, and she saw the writing on the wall.

She could still have ended it in Ishido's favour by sending Yaemon with his banner on the field, but then again, Toronaga would have certainly assassinated the heir if she had done so. As a mother, her first obligation was to her son and she felt the need to not force Toronaga to strike at her son. This bought her time, as her boy would grow up and she could hopefully outlast Toronaga, which is not what happened if the Shogunverse keeps on following the larger outline of Japanese history. That being said, it was a reasonable decision for her to make in the novel, given the knowledge she had in my opinion.  

In contrast, the great importance of the hostage ploy is not stressed nearly enough on the show. Lord Kiyama is a cipher whose exact link with Mariko (and the fact that Ishido is secretly in league with Onishi the lepper to destroy him) is also undercooked and the security of Osaka Castle is also not strongly emphasized imo.

What made it even worse, is that Toronaga is not depicted as nearly ruthless enough. He comes across as a plotter in that final episode, but a plotter for "good" (his whole speech about peace). In the novel, by that time it is rather clear that he's a first-rate machiavelli and would definitely have murdered the heir if it became expedient to do so.

 

[SeanF]

I visited Batsford Arboretum yesterday, and standing on the bridge in the Japanese garden, I was reminded of Lord Yabusighe composing a haiku, contrasting his inner tranquility with the screams of his captive being boiled alive.

[Myrddin]

On 4/24/2024 at 6:00 PM, JGP said:

How do you explain the peaches

Hands off!

[mormont]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:44 PM, Nictarion said:

Shout out to Tadanobu Asano who really killed it in this. I think Yabushige ended up being my favorite part of the show. 

Yabushige's death is a favourite moment for me, just for the way Asano plays it: no ritual, just an almost casual thrust in the gut. It's so perfect a note for him to end on. All the obsession with death, only to finish his own life with as undramatic and unceremonious a moment as you could imagine.

I did read Toronaga as a ruthless manipulator almost from the start - the information is, after all, presented to us to show this. In a way, it's Hiroyuki Sanada's fault: he's just too darn sympathetic. 

ETA - this is also why I liked Gin so much, and why she's important. Gin sees right through Toranaga. 

Edited April 30 by mormont

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

I feel they showed Toranaga as the reluctant leader who took up arms for the greater good and out of loyalty to his old masters heir but it seems he’s very different person as per the books and what you guys are saying. But the show,until the very last scene, did not give me that impression very much. Might’ve been too subtle for me I admit.

[mormont]

We see Toranaga risk the lives of everyone in the party leaving Osaka, then leave Buntaro behind to die. His relationship with his son, who is desperate to impress him, is at best harsh and unforgiving, and his reaction to Nagakado's death is to use it to his advantage - his grief is exaggerated for this purpose. We're told he basically manipulated Mariko's father into his death. He orders Fuji, still grieving the loss of her husband and child, to become a consort to a strange foreigner. He watches his most loyal retainer commit suicide as a ploy. He ordered a loyal samurai to live as a peasant for years. He persecutes the villagers brutally for sabotaging the ship when he knows they didn't do it. And this is just the stuff that comes to mind.

[Relic]

Yeah, he's a giant pos who was made somehow... more...by the actor playing him.

Edited May 1 by Relic

[Ser Not Appearing]

9 hours ago, mormont said:

We see Toranaga risk the lives of everyone in the party leaving Osaka, then leave Buntaro behind to die. His relationship with his son, who is desperate to impress him, is at best harsh and unforgiving, and his reaction to Nagakado's death is to use it to his advantage - his grief is exaggerated for this purpose. We're told he basically manipulated Mariko's father into his death. He orders Fuji, still grieving the loss of her husband and child, to become a consort to a strange foreigner. He watches his most loyal retainer commit suicide as a ploy. He ordered a loyal samurai to live as a peasant for years. He persecutes the villagers brutally for sabotaging the ship when he knows they didn't do it. And this is just the stuff that comes to mind.

 

But, other than that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Dawn Vibration]

Finally finished it. Such a well acted show. Toranaga really is a pos lol.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

He was better than most of the other Japanese leaders of that era tho….

[sifth]

8 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

He was better than most of the other Japanese leaders of that era tho….

So less evil is somehow good, lol

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

No but maybe he should he judged by the era of his time ? I mean Lincoln would be considered a racist in today’s day and age.

[Myrddin]

Toronaga stands side by side with any European Prince of the age.

[Corvinus85]

A book spoiler I learned about Toranaga

Spoiler

In the book's epilogue, he has Ishido buried up to his neck and leaves him to die like that.

But yes, he was better than his peers...

 

[mormont]

18 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

No but maybe he should he judged by the era of his time ? I mean Lincoln would be considered a racist in today’s day and age.

I think that's due to all the racism he did, though. 

The idea that we, modern people, should adopt the standards of historical people, standards we don't share, to make moral judgements is pretty weird to me, particularly in fiction. Toranaga never existed. 'His time' was never! He's a character invented by a modern Western writer for modern Western audiences. Modern Western standards are surely the appropriate ones to apply. 

Edited Friday at 07:29 AM by mormont