What The * Happened to Boeing

[polishgenius]

I know I shouldn't actually swear in the title but I think it needs it so imagine your own. 

Anyway, I figure this topic might warrant a thread of its own because fuck me when was a last time an institution went from 'byword for reliability' to 'this fucking shitshow' this extremely. 

For those perhaps not following, here's a Wendover video essay about the history that led to this point

Or John Oliver if that's more your speed
 

 

 

Anyway, the latest news is this, and they're never going to convince anyone that they didn't just murder this guy.
 

 

[Zorral]

What happened is the engineers who ran the firm were replaced with guys who were CEOs etc. of other kinds of corporations.  It now was about the dividends for shareholders and the salaries and bonuses for the Officers, and cutting corners, getting rid of the most highly paid, experienced engineers, etc.

Before my brother's section got bought out by Airbus and China, these bozos just told him, when a part that was essential to the electrical system that keeps planes in the air had bee been manufactured a millimeter too large to fit where it was supposed to go, they ordered him to file it down instead of ordering new ones with the correct measurement.  He spent months convincing them that this cannot work.

 

[polishgenius]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What happened is the engineers who ran the firm were replaced with guys who were CEOs etc. of other kinds of corporations.  It now was about the dividends for shareholders and the salaries and bonuses for the Officers, and cutting corners, getting rid of the most highly paid, experienced engineers, etc.

 

 

'Line goes up' is one of the most insidious, destructive forces in the modern world. 

[Spockydog]

There's a Netflix documentary that details the entire shit show. 

It all started to go wrong after the merger with Mcdonnell Douglas. 

[Zorral]

Just now, Spockydog said:

There's a Netflix documentary that details the entire shit show. 

It all started to go wrong after the merger with Mcdonnell Douglas. 

That's what my brother thinks too -- their culture was corporate, not engineering, at least by that time.

[maarsen]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

What happened is the engineers who ran the firm were replaced with guys who were CEOs etc. of other kinds of corporations.  It now was about the dividends for shareholders and the salaries and bonuses for the Officers, and cutting corners, getting rid of the most highly paid, experienced engineers, etc.

Before my brother's section got bought out by Airbus and China, these bozos just told him, when a part that was essential to the electrical system that keeps planes in the air had bee been manufactured a millimeter too large to fit where it was supposed to go, they ordered him to file it down instead of ordering new ones with the correct measurement.  He spent months convincing them that this cannot work.

 

As a millwright I have seen so much of this in every workplace I have been in. And yes I have been asked to do this kind of stuff. There is always someone who knows nothing of engineering or millwrighting but by dint of authority thinks the laws of physics don't apply to them. I always asked them to put that request in writing so when the inevitable happens, we have a paper trail that leads to reason for the failure. Or as one millwright  friend would say ''are you f'ing stupid!??" when given such a request.

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

That's what my brother thinks too -- their culture was corporate, not engineering, at least by that time.

The early days of Boeing sound like it was a dream job for engineers. And not just them, but their families too. Everyone was looked after, but the work came first, and by extension, passenger safety.

Of course, then the money men took over and it all went to shit at the shrine of the bottom line.

 

[mcbigski]

It seems to me like Boeing went from promoting the top decile people that made great planes to assassinating them to protect the share price if they got out of line.

I'd rather flow a Boeing plane my age than one from the last ten years.

[Zorral]

F.B.I. Tells Passengers on Alaska Flight They May Have Been Crime Victims
Letters sent by the bureau’s Seattle office are a sign that the Justice Department’s investigation into Boeing, the maker of the plane whose fuselage panel blew off, is ramping up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/22/us/politics/fbi-investigation-boeing.html

 

[Hmmm]

"If it's a Boeing, I'm not going!"

[Spockydog]

2 hours ago, Hmmm said:

"If it's a Boeing, I'm not going!"

I am never setting foot on a Boeing plane ever again.

 

[A True Kaniggit]

1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

I am never setting foot on a Boeing plane ever again.

 

Don’t be dramatic. 
 

Do you still step foot in cars?

Every time you step into a car, is still vastly more dangerous than every time you step foot into an airplane, Boeing or not.  
 

Edit: It’s called math. 

Edited March 23 by A True Kaniggit

[Spockydog]

Sure. You can choose to ignore reports of a company deliberately putting their customers' lives at risk in order to save money, or not. 

Never flying Boeing, just like I am never buying a Tesla death trap.

 

[Filippa Eilhart]

Interesting. You’re going to be checking what plane a given route is every time? What if they change a plane last minute? Will you realise you’re boarding a Boeing when it was supposed to be an Airbus? 
 

 

[Spockydog]

56 minutes ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

Interesting. You’re going to be checking what plane a given route is every time? What if they change a plane last minute? Will you realise you’re boarding a Boeing when it was supposed to be an Airbus? 
 

 

I don't get the smartassery on display here. Why are people acting as if a trip on a Boeing aircraft is some kind of cosmic inevitably that it would be foolhardy to even begin to attempt to avoid?

Anyway in answer to your questions, 1) yes, and 2) last minute equipment changes are extremely rare*.

*source: 25 years of experience working in the corporate travel industry. 

Edited March 23 by Spockydog

[A Horse Named Stranger]

There's another good reason to pick Airbus over Boeing. No, not the fly by wire vs. human pilot debate.

The seats are more comfy in an Airbus imho.

[Spockydog]

There have been eight recent safety incidents, in two weeks, on United Airlines Boeing flights.

But, yeah, lol at anyone resolving not to travel on these aircraft. 

 

[Spockydog]

Actually, it's eleven. In March alone. 

https://qz.com/united-airlines-safety-incidents-faa-1851348497

United are having all kinds of issues, it would seem. 

And not just with their Boeing stock. 

Edited March 23 by Spockydog

[Lord of Oop North]

5 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Actually, it's eleven. In March alone. 

https://qz.com/united-airlines-safety-incidents-faa-1851348497

United's are having all kinds of issues, it would seem. 

And not just with their Boeing stock. 

So on that link of the eleven incidents: 1 was drunk passengers, and 3 were Airbus.

Bad month for sure, but sometimes you got to question how much of this is always going on, and not that serious. But is just more in the spotlight now because of the Boeing fiasco.

Edited March 23 by Lord of Oop North

[Altherion]

The issue is actually not unique to Boeing, it's just that Boeing makes a product that makes it obvious. Almost everything constructed today is deliberately made in a way that reduces costs at the expense of quality. That is, the item usually still functions as intended, but some fraction will be flawed from the start and the rest are more likely to break down sooner than expected or function incorrectly in corner cases. There are products (e.g. water heaters) where the manufacturer is actually happy about this because they don't want the thing to last too far past the warranty (the technical name for this is planned obsolescence). There are other products (e.g. most software) where this is not desirable, but people will tolerate it.

Boeing's problem is that planes are a rare product where this is not just undesirable, but completely intolerable. They're some of the largest and most complicated machines we design, they operate in an unforgiving environment and can carry hundreds of people. It's not enough for most planes to work properly most of the time and we've reached the point where the latter is pretty much the case.

Our problem as a society is that corporate culture is not something that stays confined to a single corporation. It's not really possible to have most corporations run by despicable parasites who mainly care about their own compensation and thus the stock price, but then single out a few critical spaces where these parasites are not welcome -- there simply isn't a pool of leaders to draw anything else from or of investors who would deal with the alternative leadership.