Mudguard Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 21 hours ago, DMC said: You continue to ignore the fact the Hamas leadership is not in Gaza. Sinwar and other military leaders are still in Gaza. Also, if Hamas is functionally defeated in Gaza and rendered an underground resistance movement, it's not going to matter that much to Israel that a handful of political leaders have survived and are located outside of Gaza. If Israel really wants, they can then assassinate those leaders too. It's clear that they have no qualms about doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 33 minutes ago, Kalbear said: So how does 'eradicate Hamas' do that? Hamas isn't in Iran. Hamas' leaders aren't in Iran. Hurting Hamas doesn't harm Iran in any meaningful way. They aren’t even the same religion. Iranian theocrats think Hamas are a bunch of infidels, and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Just now, Mudguard said: Also, if Hamas is functionally defeated in Gaza and rendered an underground resistance movement, it's not going to matter that much to Israel that a handful of political leaders have survived and are located outside of Gaza. As Kal just emphasized, one can easily argue this is already the case - and elucidating a distinction between the current status quo and “functionally defeated” is inherently fuzzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudguard Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 10 minutes ago, DMC said: As Kal just emphasized, one can easily argue this is already the case - and elucidating a distinction between the current status quo and “functionally defeated” is inherently fuzzy. I agree that "defeated" is a fuzzy term. But it's clear that Israel is going to only "victory" after it goes into Rafah and conducts an operation there. I think that it would be difficult to declare victory if they don't kill or capture Sinwar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Mudguard said: I agree that "defeated" is a fuzzy term. But it's clear that Israel is going to only "victory" after it goes into Rafah and conducts an operation there. I think that it would be difficult to declare victory if they don't kill or capture Sinwar. They should probably mention that as one of their goals, then. ETA: I also don't think that it's clear that that's where they'll declare victory. Given this Israeli government and their goals I don't think it's really clear when they'll stop at all, and it is significantly in this government's interests to prolong it for as long as they can. Edited May 2 by Kalbear Prince of the North 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 4 hours ago, Jace, Extat said: their ability to conduct another Oct. 7th attack is being destroyed. One should be very careful about such predictions. One should not even try to make book on it. Bibi has done everything to make the entire world hate not only Israel but Jews all together. This is a tragedy and a great horror in the making. Crixus, Rippounet, kissdbyfire and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 2 minutes ago, Zorral said: One should be very careful about such predictions. One should not even try to make book on it. Bibi has done everything to make the entire world hate not only Israel but Jews all together. This is a tragedy and a great horror in the making. From December 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/antisemitism-executive-order-trump-chilling-effect Quote Fifteen years ago, as the American Jewish Committee’s antisemitism expert, I was the lead drafter of what was then called the “working definition of antisemitism”. It was created primarily so that European data collectors could know what to include and exclude. That way antisemitism could be monitored better over time and across borders. It was never intended to be a campus hate speech code, but that’s what Donald Trump’s executive order accomplished this week. This order is an attack on academic freedom and free speech, and will harm not only pro-Palestinian advocates, but also Jewish students and faculty, and the academy itself. Donald Trump is attacking both Jews and the left with one clean blow The problem isn’t that the executive order affords protection to Jewish students under title VI of the Civil Rights Act. The Department of Education made clear in 2010 that Jews, Sikhs and Muslims (as ethnicities) could complain about intimidation, harassment and discrimination under this provision. I supported this clarification and filed a successful complaint for Jewish high school students when they were bullied, even kicked (there was a “Kick a Jew Day”). But starting in 2010, rightwing Jewish groups took the “working definition”, which had some examples about Israel (such as holding Jews collectively responsible for the actions of Israel, and denying Jews the right to self-determination), and decided to weaponize it with title VI cases. While some allegations were about acts, mostly they complained about speakers, assigned texts and protests they said violated the definition. All these cases lost, so then these same groups asked the University of California to adopt the definition and apply it to its campuses. When that failed, they asked Congress, and when those efforts stalled, the president. As proponents of the executive order like the Zionist Organization of America make clear, they see the application of the definition as “cover[ing] many of the anti-Jewish outrages … frequently led by … Students for Justice in Palestine, including … calls for ‘intifada’ [and] demonizing Israel”. As much as I disagree with SJP, it has the right to make “calls”. That’s called free speech. If you think this isn’t about suppressing political speech, contemplate a parallel. There’s no definition of anti-black racism that has the force of law when evaluating a title VI case. If you were to craft one, would you include opposition to affirmative action? Opposing removal of Confederate statues? Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and special adviser, wrote in the New York Times that the definition “makes clear [that] Anti-Zionism is antisemitism”. I’m a Zionist. But on a college campus, where the purpose is to explore ideas, anti-Zionists have a right to free expression. I suspect that if Kushner or I had been born into a Palestinian family displaced in 1948, we might have a different view of Zionism, and that need not be because we vilify Jews or think they conspire to harm humanity. Further, there’s a debate inside the Jewish community whether being Jewish requires one to be a Zionist. I don’t know if this question can be resolved, but it should frighten all Jews that the government is essentially defining the answer for us. Rippounet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Lol if it wasn't so tragic. So there are people who unironically think all out war will not increase the number of people willing to become terrorists? Worked so damned well with Iraq and Afghanistan. Got rid of the head of Al Qeada in dramatic and much celebrated fashion. We got ISIS for their troubles. The US and its friends keep assassinating heads of terror orgs and yet it seems to have little effect. It's almost like demonising and oppressing whole populations makes them not like you very much and creates people willing to do bad things. When are people going to learn that Islamic terror isn't a snake, it's both a hydra and a worm. Cut off a head and two grow back. Slice up the body and each bit grows into a new worm. Peace is the way to kill the hydra and the worm, but it seems a bunch of people persist in believing it's war that will do the job. Violence begets violence. In nature positive feedback loops pretty much always end in an explosion, I think that is also true about human conflict. If someone doesn't break the cycle what we're seeing now is just a prelude to something much worse. For those thirsty to see certain people suffering, it won't just be the one's you want to suffer who will suffer. The Mance, Rippounet, Crixus and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 Jace since you're going mask off "open war will set us free" let's hear your honest opinion about how to avoid future insurgency in Gaza. Do you think the Palestinians should just be pushed out as part of this operation so Israel doesn't have to face this threat again, or is that a step too far? Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 25 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said: Peace is the way to kill the hydra and the worm, but it seems a bunch of people persist in believing it's war that will do the job. Violence begets violence. In nature positive feedback loops pretty much always end in an explosion, I think that is also true about human conflict. If someone doesn't break the cycle what we're seeing now is just a prelude to something much worse. For those thirsty to see certain people suffering, it won't just be the one's you want to suffer who will suffer. Irt the population(s) in general, it's easy to believe b/c you have both the MSM and the politicians you like/vote for - meaning dems & republicans - spouting the same fucking shite into people's ears nonstop, while also suppressing information about the other side of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted May 2 Share Posted May 2 15 minutes ago, karaddin said: Jace since you're going mask off "open war will set us free" let's hear your honest opinion about how to avoid future insurgency in Gaza. Do you think the Palestinians should just be pushed out as part of this operation so Israel doesn't have to face this threat again, or is that a step too far? One assumes there is support in some quarters for ethnic cleansing. Problem is it's really genocide that's needed if the aim is to permanently rid Gaza of all Palestinian presence, and given it would remain an irritant that means the West Bank population must also be obliterated. If you merely relocate people to a place they don't want to be there will always be a strong desire for return. The Jewish people themselves know this given the many centuries of longing to return to the Holy Land. The tricky bit is the 7.2 million Palestinian refugees not in Gaza or the West Bank, how to eradicate them needs a bit more planning. straits 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Turkey halts trade with Israel over 'humanitarian tragedy' in Gaza https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68945380 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 3 hours ago, karaddin said: Jace since you're going mask off "open war will set us free" let's hear your honest opinion about how to avoid future insurgency in Gaza. Do you think the Palestinians should just be pushed out as part of this operation so Israel doesn't have to face this threat again, or is that a step too far? Gaza is and will be a ruin. The area will have to be occupied indefinitely by Israel, and all UN aid must be managed then dispensed by Israel. They will have to build and back a local government as rebuilding takes place, with say a 50 year plan to empower this government towards statehood. I mean it's not what I would do, but I'm a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 1 hour ago, Jace, Extat said: Gaza is and will be a ruin. The area will have to be occupied indefinitely by Israel, and all UN aid must be managed then dispensed by Israel. They will have to build and back a local government as rebuilding takes place, with say a 50 year plan to empower this government towards statehood. I mean it's not what I would do, but I'm a monster. Well what would you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 36 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said: Well what would you do Well, I'm an American. I would pursue American interests. Darzin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Balstroko Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 45 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said: Well, I'm an American. I would pursue American interests. What are American interests in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 22 minutes ago, House Balstroko said: What are American interests in this case? Israel is an ally. An irreplaceable ally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Balstroko Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 8 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said: Israel is an ally. An irreplaceable ally. I agree with them being an important ally, though I’m not sure they are entirely irreplaceable. You could make the case for Jordan fitting into that role. While I’m a firm supporter of Israel, it doesn’t mean they should be given carte blanche to pound Gaza to dust or endlessly expand the settlements in the West Bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 Still not an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted May 3 Share Posted May 3 18 minutes ago, House Balstroko said: While I’m a firm supporter of Israel, it doesn’t mean they should be given carte blanche to pound Gaza to dust or endlessly expand the settlements in the West Bank. Well, yeah. But you consider Muslims to be people. I'm not sure that Jace does based on the evidence of her recent posting. Crixus, AncalagonTheBlack, straits and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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