SpaceChampion Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Tor also publishes free samplers of exerpts and full stories in an ebook on Amazon and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayyoth Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 the irony of the entire thing is that voting a slate requires that one subordinate one's will to the orders of the slate dictator, which means that allegedly fiercely independent don't-tread-on-me teabaggers are goosestepping around in unison simply because someone told them to do it. (that torgs had the gall to suggest he commits 'thoughtcrime' by disagreeing with SJWs is beyond comical in comparison.). it is reminiscent of dittohead conduct, freepers shutting down internet polls, and how far right activists acted in thomas frank's what's the matter with kansas?: mass action for the cause at the command of the central authority and in the absence of independent knowledge in those who follow the orders. they're willing to charge their political enemies with conspiracy here and in gamergate because they take part in these coordinated efforts so easily themselves, and if they don't see the coordinated effort in the open by their assumed adversaries (i.e., everyone else), they assume it must be occurring secretly, which is further presumed to be unlawful (because why keep it secret otherwise?)--because it is impossible for illiberal anti-modernists to believe that market participation can produce an outcome in the absence of prior coercion but rather through the voluntary effort on many independent participants. this reveals the SP/RP groups to be fundamentally anti-liberal (i.e., anti-market), which should not be surprising, given the fascistic opinions otherwise. Depends which side you're discussing. The RP's seem pretty damn clear that they think of themselves as a small guerilla group taking on the hordes of SJWdom. I'd describe VD as an unapologetic fascist/elitist as well as an epic level shit stirrer. The SPs seem far more deluded in comparison. Anyway I'm glad Liu won best Novel, much deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denstorebog Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 So, Vox Day, instigator of Rabid Puppies and all-round asshole, has written and self-published an anti-SJW book, supposedly a guide to taking down those who have the audacity to dabble in morals. Link is here for anyone like me who is not above downvoting a book that demonizes decent people or upvoting reviews that point out the hypocrisy of the title. (The author already reported the first negative review to Amazon.) May your heart guide your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Colour me not at all surprised that Day decided to try and cash in on the free publicity. ETA - as for downvoting, we do not condone that as a board and I don't encourage people personally to do that. The adage about mudwrestling with a pig applies. There are already shill reviews with 80+ upvotes on there. Every spat just feeds the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowjack Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Rabid/Sad puppies and Donald Trump blowing up in the same year? The anti-immigrant, anti-gay, female-hostile, anti-authority (as long as it's not on your side) crowd the new right is courting mystifies me. Vox Day and his crowd (I would say ilk, but don't want to add linguistic bias here) and Donald Trump are symptoms, not the actual problems. There had been a growing discontent with the "Government" for years. Where the TURNER DIARIES were once subversive, they are now not nearly as shocking. This may be a generational reaction to the cultural revolution of the 60's. The 'social justice warriors' and the 'puppies' truly feel they are correct in their approach, their beliefs. And they are so diametrically opposite there there is NO middle ground. I think these things will simply have to burn themselves out...hopefully in a figurative fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Rabid/Sad puppies and Donald Trump blowing up in the same year? The anti-immigrant, anti-gay, female-hostile, anti-authority (as long as it's not on your side) crowd the new right is courting mystifies me. Vox Day and his crowd (I would say ilk, but don't want to add linguistic bias here) and Donald Trump are symptoms, not the actual problems. There had been a growing discontent with the "Government" for years. Where the TURNER DIARIES were once subversive, they are now not nearly as shocking. This may be a generational reaction to the cultural revolution of the 60's. The 'social justice warriors' and the 'puppies' truly feel they are correct in their approach, their beliefs. And they are so diametrically opposite there there is NO middle ground. I think these things will simply have to burn themselves out...hopefully in a figurative fashion. The problem with this thought is that there isn't two sides in this skirmish. There are just a bunch of racist, anti-Semitic, and misogynist activists who have managed to talk a larger, but still small amount of right wingers into joining their cause under thinly veiled ideas like Science fiction isn't fun anymore. There isn't a Social Justice Warrior side of things. That is just nomenclature used to rally their troops. The truth of the matter is that it is the puppies, and then everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Was thinking about the question of why the Puppies' work sucks so hard. It's not just the lack of appreciation that female characters can actually be more than ciphers... Maybe it's the lack of nuance overall. When you're actively advocating the type of fiction where the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, and you can tell a story will be about spaceships because there's a spaceship on the cover - yeah, the world has moved on a LONG way from when that was adequate, if it ever really was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Actually Vox writing a book against SJWs only weakens the overall position of Puppies and Gaters. I mean to the world at large this is a guy who seems happy to call a black woman a "half savage" and generally wants to deport all people of color from the Western World. Gaters and Sad Puppies need to detach themselves from the worst in their bunch if they want to be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Was thinking about the question of why the Puppies' work sucks so hard. It's not just the lack of appreciation that female characters can actually be more than ciphers... Maybe it's the lack of nuance overall. When you're actively advocating the type of fiction where the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, and you can tell a story will be about spaceships because there's a spaceship on the cover - yeah, the world has moved on a LONG way from when that was adequate, if it ever really was. I think it has more to do with them only nominating peopel from their circle of friends who apparently aren't good enough friends to tell someone when their work is plain shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Was thinking about the question of why the Puppies' work sucks so hard. It's not just the lack of appreciation that female characters can actually be more than ciphers... Maybe it's the lack of nuance overall. When you're actively advocating the type of fiction where the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, and you can tell a story will be about spaceships because there's a spaceship on the cover - yeah, the world has moved on a LONG way from when that was adequate, if it ever really was. I actually disagree with part of this. The Good vs. Evil trope in literature and storytelling is as old as storytelling itself. Some of the best stories ever told uses it. It really is all about the skill of the writer. People often tell horrible tales using more grey characters as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Was thinking about the question of why the Puppies' work sucks so hard. It's not just the lack of appreciation that female characters can actually be more than ciphers... Maybe it's the lack of nuance overall. When you're actively advocating the type of fiction where the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, and you can tell a story will be about spaceships because there's a spaceship on the cover - yeah, the world has moved on a LONG way from when that was adequate, if it ever really was. Nah, simple straightforward tales of good and evil work fine. Star Wars (the OT) is a quintessential example. It just seems more a combination of shit writing and the work acting as a thinly veiled political screed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Ooh look, someone's made an RPG that's perfect for Vox Day: http://www.metalsucks.net/2015/08/21/advanced-discrimination-dragons-critical-look-varg-vikernes-myfarog-rpg/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I actually disagree with part of this. The Good vs. Evil trope in literature and storytelling is as old as storytelling itself. Some of the best stories ever told uses it. It really is all about the skill of the writer. People often tell horrible tales using more grey characters as well. what is your explanation? Mine doesn't really explain things, it just says that certain traits make good writers and these traits also predispose people to certain political opinions... but anyone else got any other ideas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I actually disagree with part of this. The Good vs. Evil trope in literature and storytelling is as old as storytelling itself. Some of the best stories ever told uses it. It really is all about the skill of the writer. People often tell horrible tales using more grey characters as well. what is your explanation? Mine doesn't really explain things, it just says that certain traits make good writers and these traits also predispose people to certain political opinions... but anyone else got any other ideas... I see it as artistic integrity - doing every bit over which you have control as well as you can. It's entirely possible, and happens frequently, for a conservative writer to create a believable, well-constructed plot with neatly rounded characters who think for themselves whether they are in a position of control or not, whether the tale is Good versus Evil or something else. However, if a person believes - to use Vox Day's wording - that black women are half-savages, he or she is surely less likely to bother to characterise them well or treat their position in the story with integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Well, when your picks for your slate are based mostly on "What did my buddies wrote this year?", it's quite likely that they will range between mediocre and terrible. Especially if you are a hack and your friends tend to be hacks too, as in Torgersen's case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I see it as artistic integrity - doing every bit over which you have control as well as you can. It's entirely possible, and happens frequently, for a conservative writer to create a believable, well-constructed plot with neatly rounded characters who think for themselves whether they are in a position of control or not, whether the tale is Good versus Evil or something else. However, if a person believes - to use Vox Day's wording - that black women are half-savages, he or she is surely less likely to bother to characterise them well or treat their position in the story with integrity. yeah. That is more or less part of the explanation I gave upthread. Who knows if you think white women shouldn't vote and that black women are savages, you're not going to be very good at characterising them... but even their white male characters suck apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 to be an NRx person, one will not have a particularly fertile mind or a nuanced appreciation of anything; is there any mystery why an NRxer stands in the back dressed stupidly and looking stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Was thinking about the question of why the Puppies' work sucks so hard. It's not just the lack of appreciation that female characters can actually be more than ciphers... Maybe it's the lack of nuance overall. When you're actively advocating the type of fiction where the good guys are good and the bad guys are bad, and you can tell a story will be about spaceships because there's a spaceship on the cover - yeah, the world has moved on a LONG way from when that was adequate, if it ever really was. I really no idea what you are trying to say, but I doubt I agree with it. I have nothing against spaceships on the cover of books, or against the "sort" of fiction that might have such things. I think the reason the Puppies' work "sucks" (or, to be more kind, is probably mediocre at best) is because this is true of most fiction, and the reason people are promoting sucky or mediocre fiction by various means (including the Hugos) is because that's what people do. Lots of people are trying to sell you something, and in many cases, it turns out to be not very good. Moreover people tend to be vainglorious, overestimating the quality of their own work; and perhaps those of their friends as well. Not to mention that, if you are an author, and you want to make a living, blowing your own horn (or better yet, joining forces with others to blow each other's horns) is almost a necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I take it everyone's seen this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayyoth Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I take it everyone's seen this? He's kind of a shitlord genius. I mean this whole thread is pretty much about him, the whole controversy has been centered around him and he's transformed the puppies form 'let's try and get Toni Weisskopf nominated this year' to 'let's burn the whole motherfucker down'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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