Brienne of Tarth lack of bethrothal or husband very ODD

[Haus Berlin]

14 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

One word:

Jaime Lannister. 

Well, it's not unlikely that the institution of the Kingsguard will be down at the series' end. Like Ser Hunt Jaime would surely be without land, title or money then. Quite a catch. ;-)

[John Suburbs]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

From your original post it sounds like your congratulating him for being progressive, as if he was some 1920's father allowing his daughter to live her own life.  Personally, I find just to much of a leap, their society is light  years behind ours in terms of misogyny.  This reeks of him washing his hands of her rather than treating Brienne how she wants to be treated.

Tyrion in peace time has two men who can act as guards, in war time Tywin sends him from Harrenhal to kings Landing with hundreds of men. The majority of lords would not be sending out their sons without some kind of squire/backup, the fact that the 17 year old Brienne has neither suggests her father does not think of her as a priority. 

Selwyn lowballing a man of Hoat's reputation for the return of his only living child is also telling, as is him shipping her off at 16 when her third betrothal had failed. 

Right, but your original point was that Selwyn was odd when in fact he was like every other father, maybe even worse as Brienne clearly did not want to be married and made it clear yet her father had first betrothed her at the age of 7 and was planning to marry her as soon as she was flowered.  His third choice was a man of 65 a man who told Brienne she would 'no her place', this was not a father looking out for her daughter's happiness, it was a father trying to rid himself of an embarrassing daughter. 

He did, the last man was incredibly hurt in the process.  Brienne had gone from a younger son of a powerful Lord, a landed knight (Connington) to an old household knight. Going any lower would have been bad for the House and given Brienne's reputation for both beauty, unwillingness to marry and ability to kick ass her suitors would have been limited. 

or simply didn't care about her childhood too busy with his different woman every year, allowing her to do as she pleased due to the fact that he was always going to marry her off. he could not have expected that she would physically beat up her suitor. 

not many that would be a suitable match for the daughter of Lord Tarth. 

my pet theory is that Brienne, with both Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry, is going to be the monarch at the end of the series and she will have to give up her 'knighthhood' lifestyle and actually marry for the good of the realm. 

He was a womanizer, apparently, so I can't see his views on women being all that progressive.

Also, Randyll Tarly calls him "a good man," which is kind of like Joffrey saying Sweetrobin is a fine boy.

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This reeks of him washing his hands of her rather than treating Brienne how she wants to be treated.

Martin makes her "freakishly" tall and physically strong with a determined state of mind.  She wants to be a knight. Her father semi supported those traits.  He allowed her to train. Living her protected and privileged life on the "emerald isle"  as the lords daughter she did not understand what the Westeros population thought or the delimma's she would face.

Brienne's true self seems to be revealed when she speaks to the Elder Brother. There are two elements in the below quote. One is the EB telling Brienne to go home. The other is a confession of sorts. I put the quote in the reveal tag for brevity.

Spoiler

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI     "I see." Brienne did not know why he was telling her all of this, or what else she ought to say.     "Do you?" He leaned forward, his big hands on his knees. "If so, give up this quest of yours. The Hound is dead, and in any case he never had your Sansa Stark. As for this beast who wears his helm, he will be found and hanged. The wars are ending, and these outlaws cannot survive the peace. Randyll Tarly is hunting them from Maidenpool and Walder Frey from the Twins, and there is a new young lord in Darry, a pious man who will surely set his lands to rights. Go home, child. You have a home, which is more than many can say in these dark days. You have a noble father who must surely love you. Consider his grief if you should never return. Perhaps they will bring your sword and shield to him, after you have fallen. Perhaps he will even hang them in his hall and look on them with pride . . . but if you were to ask him, I know he would tell you that he would sooner have a living daughter than a shattered shield."

"A daughter." Brienne's eyes filled with tears. "He deserves that. A daughter who could sing to him and grace his hall and bear him grandsons. He deserves a son too, a strong and gallant son to bring honor to his name. Galladon drowned when I was four and he was eight, though, and Alysanne and Arianne died still in the cradle. I am the only child the gods let him keep. The freakish one, not fit to be a son or daughter." All of it came pouring out of Brienne then, like black blood from a wound; the betrayals and betrothals, Red Ronnet and his rose, Lord Renly dancing with her, the wager for her maidenhead, the bitter tears she shed the night her king wed Margaery Tyrell, the mêlée at Bitterbridge, the rainbow cloak that she had been so proud of, the shadow in the king's pavilion, Renly dying in her arms, Riverrun and Lady Catelyn, the voyage down the Trident, dueling Jaime in the woods, the Bloody Mummers, Jaime crying "Sapphires," Jaime in the tub at Harrenhal with steam rising from his body, the taste of Vargo Hoat's blood when she bit down on his ear, the bear pit, Jaime leaping down onto the sand, the long ride to King's Landing, Sansa Stark, the vow she'd sworn to Jaime, the vow she'd sworn to Lady Catelyn, Oathkeeper, Duskendale, Maidenpool, Nimble Dick and Crackclaw and the Whispers, the men she'd killed . . ./

The above quote is rather long. It does however shed some insight into Brienne. Book Brienne is not HBO Brienne. Book Brienne did not fight the Hound. She fought with Jaime while he was weak from being kept in a dungeon.

As you and I know martin is not quite finished with Brienne, yet. Through her precarious situations Brienne has been "saved" by men. The last saving was by Gendry who ran a sword through the man who took a chunk off Brienne's face.

Again, Brienne is placed in a sticky situation ---- Brienne is taken to LSH --- while I am not privy to the deal, Brienne is to bring Jaime to LSH.

What does Jaime think/say when he sees Brienne ---- she looks ten years older while it has probably been less than a year since the two spoke face to face. That is in my mind a bad omen.

A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I      "She rode up bold as you please, m'lord, demanding words with you."    Jaime scrambled to his feet. "My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon." Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face? "That bandage … you've been wounded …"    "A bite."

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

my pet theory is that Brienne, with both Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry, is going to be the monarch at the end of the series and she will have to give up her 'knighthhood' lifestyle and actually marry for the good of the realm. 

 

My hope is that Brienne returns to Tarth and carries on her fathers legacy. BUT I am of the opinion that Brienne dies in some manner defending Jaime.

 

 

[Seams]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:25 PM, Stormking902 said:

Brienne is the sole heir to the island of Tarth and its wealth, house Tarth is on equal ground with house Swann and Dondarrion of the Stormlands in terms of power but no man wants to be her husband because she's ugly? Thats nonsense and most men especially men with great ambition would jump at the chance to marry Brienne and take her fathers lands and incomes. If your a real piece of shit get a couple a kids off her and have her killed and remarry, it sounds horrible and it is but there are some real scum who would love this idea.

I think this misses some important points, some of which have already been made in subsequent comments. The major flaw is that the problem isn't finding someone who would marry Brienne; it's that Brienne hasn't found anyone she would marry after some deeply painful losses, rejections, mismatches and finding herself the butt of a cruel courtship scam. She also has an ideal in mind - her beliefs about Renly - and finds that no one else measures up. Shortly after leaving home, she pledged her sword to Renly and then joined his Rainbow Guard. Since Renly died, she became busy with her service to Catelyn followed by her quest on Jaime's behalf.

Ser Hyle Hunt proposes to Brienne, so we know that she could have a husband if she wanted one. She doesn't trust Ser Hyle, however, and his business-like explanation of the reasons for the match do not meet with her romantic ideal, inspired by dancing with Renly when she was a kid. I'm sure there are other decent knights and lordlings who would find similar reasons to marry her, and who were not involved in the cruel betting pool focused on taking Brienne's maidenhead.

@Clegane'sPup cited the line indicating that her father did not insist on another betrothal after the third one fell through. If that's the part you think is odd, I might agree with you there. As the sole heir (apparently), it seems as if a marriage and legitimate heirs would be important to her lord father.

Brienne tells Catelyn that her father had an affair with a singer (he could fit his hands around her waist) so she might have a sibling somewhere in the world. It seems to me that GRRM would not drop that hint unless it is going to be relevant later. My guess is that we are being told that there is an heir to Evenfall already out and about, just waiting to be legitimized.

We have seen another oddly (for Westeros) independent woman: Lady Barbry Dustin. There was a thread awhile back questioning why she never had to remarry after her husband and her heir both died. Why does her situation differ from Lady Donella Hornwood, who is expected to remarry after he husband and son die in battle. I think the key to understanding exceptions like Lady Dustin and Brienne is to examine GRRM's literary goals, not to psychoanalyze his fictional characters. My guess is that Lady Dustin embodies the crone archetype and Brienne embodies the maid. Brienne will never marry because she is supposed to bring to life that aspect of the godhead.

I am also aware that Sansa and Margaery are (apparently) still maids after being married. So Brienne isn't the only one whose story has been arranged to conform with that archetype.

The Florian and Jonquil and Ser Galladon of Morne tales provide some helpful hints about Brienne's purpose. I believe GRRM has deliberately withheld details of the Florian and Jonquil story from us, but it may be a variation on the Ser Galladon story, which involves the knight meeting the maiden of the seven gods while she is bathing at the site now known as Maidenpool. She gives him a magical sword. I'm not sure whether Brienne is in the Ser Galladon role with Jaime as the maiden, or vice versa. Or maybe the point is that together they comprise a complete pair.

In other words, Brienne is not going to find completion through marriage. She is going to find it through succeeding in her quest and/or retaining her honor.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

We have seen another oddly (for Westeros) independent woman: Lady Barbry Dustin.

My thought was Brienne's father kept her safe while Brienne was living on Tarth. Brienne had privilege under her fathers name.

Lady Dustin on the other hand, had Stark and Bolton, running interference.

Let me not be misunderstood. In MHO martin is not writing a She-Rah story. Ladies do your research.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Tyrion in peace time has two men who can act as guards, in war time Tywin sends him from Harrenhal to kings Landing with hundreds of men. The majority of lords would not be sending out their sons without some kind of squire/backup, the fact that the 17 year old Brienne has neither suggests her father does not think of her as a priority. 

Selwyn lowballing a man of Hoat's reputation for the return of his only living child is also telling, as is him shipping her off at 16 when her third betrothal had failed. 

This is a good point. The risks Briene would face  if she decided to play knight are not really going to be hard to grasp to a man like Selwyn. I mean Tarley(like him or hate him), wasnt really acting that much worse(hell probably better than most lords), when he told Briene she's putting herself at risk to being sexually brutalizied and/or killed by virtue of joining the army and "pretending" to be a knight. Her having some bodyguards would reduced her vulnerability, her being made aware of the risks, even more so-the fact Selywn did neither does not really paint Selywn who actually cares for the safety of his daughter. 

14 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

or simply didn't care about her childhood too busy with his different woman every year, allowing her to do as she pleased due to the fact that he was always going to marry her off. he could not have expected that she would physically beat up her suitor. 

Quote

This can be true. Likely is in my opinion. I mean we never see Briene remiss about any particular fond memories about her father showing her any particular love or pride in her "being herself". I  mean honestly, doubtful he thought his daughter wouldn't out grow her idiosyncrasies. Like Ned with Arya, he probably thought it was a harmless phase she was going through. 

 

 

[Seams]

5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

My thought was Brienne's father kept her safe while Brienne was living on Tarth. Brienne had privilege under her fathers name.

Lady Dustin on the other hand, had Stark and Bolton, running interference.

Let me not be misunderstood. In MHO martin is not writing a She-Rah story. Ladies do your research.

 

Ladies do my research? What does this mean?

 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 minutes ago, Seams said:

Ladies do my research? What does this mean?

 

It means look into history. I dunna know, maybe back as far as 1960 or 1970. I guess it depends on where a female lived. When did the marital rape law come into effect? There are countries around the world that dispose of female children or sell them.

My reading of martins's story implies to me that Brienne's da loved and allowed Brienne to venture forth . On the other hand maybe Brienne's da just wanted to get rid of her.

I wanna think that Brienne's da loved her.

BTW  dunna appreciate your changing my word.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This can be true. Likely is in my opinion. I mean we never see Briene remiss about any particular fond memories about her father showing her any particular love or pride in her "being herself". I  mean honestly, doubtful he thought his daughter wouldn't out grow her idiosyncrasies. Like Ned with Arya, he probably thought it was a harmless phase she was going through. 

Marrying his 16 year old daughter to a 65 year old household knight seems to me like the biggest example that he simply wanted to get rid of her.

• Hoster Tully is certainly not thinking about his daughter's well being when he marries her off to the 60something Jon Arryn, we know that this marriage ended their relationship with Hoster regretting it on his deathbed.  
• 23 year old Sylva Santagar, the heir of her House, has been made to marry the 79 year old Lord Estermont as a punishment due to her involvement in the Myrcella debacle. 
• Asha is a rival to the Ironborn throne so her uncle marries her off to the 88 year old Lord Ironmaker to decrease her chances of making a claim. 
• Arrianne believes her father is stripping her of her heirhood when he tries to arrange marriages to some of the oldest lords in the land

 

Wagstaff is an old insignificant knight, there is no upside to Lord Tarth marrying his daughter to him and given that he tells Brienne in no certain manner that she will stop acting the way she does or face his punishment it does not seem he picked him to keep his 'unconventional' daughter happy. 

[LindsayLohan]

Selwyn seems to have other potential heirs, similar to the Elbert Arryn/Jon Arryn situation.  There is (was) a Tarth on the Wall, Ser Endrew, who was briefly Castle Black's master-at-arms until his death upon the Bridge of Skulls.  If there's enough knightly Tarths around that one ended up on the Wall, I would imagine their is a greater family that has yet to be revealed on page.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Edmure Tully is around 30 and is heir to Riverrun, the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands when the books start and he's not even betrothed.  I doubt the song about his "floppy fish" would be enough of a reason for him to remain unattached. Him not being betrothed is much more strange than Brienne, IMHO.

[Sigella]

On 7/26/2018 at 10:25 PM, Stormking902 said:

Brienne is the sole heir to the island of Tarth and its wealth, house Tarth is on equal ground with house Swann and Dondarrion of the Stormlands in terms of power but no man wants to be her husband because she's ugly? Thats nonsense and most men especially men with great ambition would jump at the chance to marry Brienne and take her fathers lands and incomes. If your a real piece of shit get a couple a kids off her and have her killed and remarry, it sounds horrible and it is but there are some real scum who would love this idea. 

 

 

She has a bad reputation for being unnatural, she is unattractive and to top it off her suitors risk getting bested by a girl in combat. IMO its the getting bested part that really matters, it makes it highly unlikely that any knight would want to risk it. I like it though, it echoes the golden fleece sort of.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:21 PM, kissdbyfire said:

What may be considered "odd" for Westerosi standards is that Lord Selwyn decided to not force the issue and to let her be herself. That's why he is a very good father in my book. Imagine if Tarly or Tywin or any number of other lords would do the same. 

Why? The Mormonts (and even the Ironborn) don't seem to have any problems with this or finding husbands for their women and I think we all agree that they could kick some male butt around. Or is there some wide line drawn because the North doesn't recognize the institution of knighthood and it is assumed this is some sort of social prejudice?

[Lion of the West]

On 7/28/2018 at 11:51 AM, LindsayLohan said:

Selwyn seems to have other potential heirs, similar to the Elbert Arryn/Jon Arryn situation.  There is (was) a Tarth on the Wall, Ser Endrew, who was briefly Castle Black's master-at-arms until his death upon the Bridge of Skulls.  If there's enough knightly Tarths around that one ended up on the Wall, I would imagine their is a greater family that has yet to be revealed on page.

I don't think that just because a Tarth ends up on the Wall, there are plenty of Tarths around. Its just that this Tarth did something really stupid and so get sent there.

[Angel Eyes]

On 7/28/2018 at 12:43 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Edmure Tully is around 30 and is heir to Riverrun, the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands when the books start and he's not even betrothed.  I doubt the song about his "floppy fish" would be enough of a reason for him to remain unattached. Him not being betrothed is much more strange than Brienne, IMHO.

As Roslin proves, his "floppy fish" wasn't so floppy.

[Nevets]

At this point, Brienne is only 19 years old, and left home at 17 or 18 to join Renly's army.  If she were in her late 20s or 30s, there would be reason to worry.  As it is, she has plenty of time to find a husband while still young.  So, I can't find it especially odd.  I also expect that Martin wanted her unattached for story reasons

[kissdbyfire]

On 7/27/2018 at 7:08 AM, Bernie Mac said:

From your original post it sounds like your congratulating him for being progressive, as if he was some 1920's father allowing his daughter to live her own life.  Personally, I find just to much of a leap, their society is light  years behind ours in terms of misogyny.  This reeks of him washing his hands of her rather than treating Brienne how she wants to be treated.

Tyrion in peace time has two men who can act as guards, in war time Tywin sends him from Harrenhal to kings Landing with hundreds of men. The majority of lords would not be sending out their sons without some kind of squire/backup, the fact that the 17 year old Brienne has neither suggests her father does not think of her as a priority. 

Selwyn lowballing a man of Hoat's reputation for the return of his only living child is also telling, as is him shipping her off at 16 when her third betrothal had failed. 

Right, but your original point was that Selwyn was odd when in fact he was like every other father, maybe even worse as Brienne clearly did not want to be married and made it clear yet her father had first betrothed her at the age of 7 and was planning to marry her as soon as she was flowered.  His third choice was a man of 65 a man who told Brienne she would 'no her place', this was not a father looking out for her daughter's happiness, it was a father trying to rid himself of an embarrassing daughter. 

He did, the last man was incredibly hurt in the process.  Brienne had gone from a younger son of a powerful Lord, a landed knight (Connington) to an old household knight. Going any lower would have been bad for the House and given Brienne's reputation for both beauty, unwillingness to marry and ability to kick ass her suitors would have been limited. 

or simply didn't care about her childhood too busy with his different woman every year, allowing her to do as she pleased due to the fact that he was always going to marry her off. he could not have expected that she would physically beat up her suitor. 

not many that would be a suitable match for the daughter of Lord Tarth. 

my pet theory is that Brienne, with both Baratheon and Targaryen ancestry, is going to be the monarch at the end of the series and she will have to give up her 'knighthhood' lifestyle and actually marry for the good of the realm. 

As I said, I think we just view it very differently.

Yes, I suppose I do view Selwyn as a "progressive" lord in the setting. There is no indication in the text that he just sort of gave up on Brienne. After all, he could have disowned her, he could have locked her up, etc. But he didn't do any of those things. And we know he allowed her to train at arms. He also tries to ransom her.  Also, she has all the gear she needs, which seem to suggest that yes, he gave up on making a match for her, but he didn't give up on her. 

I recall someone else (sorry, can't remember who it was) saying it seems Selwyn was a "womaniser". I disagree. The possibility exists, for sure, but what little we get on him seems to be positive. Brienne thinks fondly of him. And the one time she thinks about the ladies her father entertained, her memories are no bitter. It would have been easy to give a bit more and paint these ladies as "evil stepmums", and yet we get none of that.

It's possible for a man to enjoy women w/o being a womanising arsehole. Hell, it's also possible to be a promiscuous man w/o being a womanising prick. 

So there, we do see it differently. At any rate, I find Selwyn to be an interesting character, and I'd like to learn more about him. 

4 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Why? The Mormonts (and even the Ironborn) don't seem to have any problems with this or finding husbands for their women and I think we all agree that they could kick some male butt around. Or is there some wide line drawn because the North doesn't recognize the institution of knighthood and it is assumed this is some sort of social prejudice?

It could be some sort of social prejudice... Idk, while we have a few good examples in the North, such as Alysane Mormont (and Jory and Lyra, even if we haven't met them yet), Dacey, Lyanna, and Maege, also Asha... there's nothing like these ladies in the south, is there? Other than Brienne,  that is.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

... there's nothing like these ladies in the south, is there? Other than Brienne,  that is.

 

Well, Cersei would really like to be like those ... ahem... "ladies". IIRC she laments the fact that she was not Jamie or her Tywin a few times. She may even envy Tyrion on a certain level.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the idea is not exactly foreign to the South, I mean stories must have traveled in all those years about those "wild bear women" and such. I suppose Lord Selwyn just gave up, but there would still be plenty of suitors along the lines of Ser Hyle who just wouldn't be acceptable due to their lower socio-economic status or lack of fame. The only reasons one would marry downward in a feudal society are to trade your title for money or to trade your money to regain lost glory by tying their fame to your landed, but tarnished, name.

[Lord Varys]

Brienne had a score or so men-at-arms with her when she joined Renly, but they did not accompany her to Storm's End. She didn't show up there completely empty-handed but her father didn't send any of his retainers with her, either. The Tarths are not rich or wealths, but they must have some household knights, and there may even be a couple of petty lords or landed knights on the island. Those people (if they exist) did not bestir themselves to join Brienne/Renly.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

As I said, I think we just view it very differently.

Yes, I suppose I do view Selwyn as a "progressive" lord in the setting. There is no indication in the text that he just sort of gave up on Brienne. After all, he could have disowned her, he could have locked her up, etc. But he didn't do any of those things. And we know he allowed her to train at arms. He also tries to ransom her.  Also, she has all the gear she needs, which seem to suggest that yes, he gave up on making a match for her, but he didn't give up on her. 

He doesn't fall over himself to rush to save her/get her back, either. He does not show up at court after her return to demand her release, nor does he make any attempt to get to her while she is there. Tarth is not at the end of the world. He doesn't even send Brienne any letters.

The fact that Selwyn seems to treat his daughter the way a father in this world should treat her doesn't mean he loves her very much on a personal level, likes what she does, or is proud of what she has accomplished. Even Tywin went to war for Tyrion - but this doesn't mean that Tywin loves Tyrion, no? Tywin also gave the dwarf a good education - both intellectually and at arms - but that doesn't mean he loves him, either.

The fact that Selwyn didn't lock up Brienne or tried to disown her (that would have been a tricky thing) isn't proof of his affection. He could just be a dutiful (but cold or indifferent) father.

And then just look how Lady Rohanne's marriage prospects are tarnished by her reputation as 'the Red Widow". She is already a lady in her own right yet suitors do not fall over themselves to marry her. Brienne isn't the Lady of Tarth yet, and sitting at her side is going to be very unpleasant for any man of note.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

So there, we do see it differently. At any rate, I find Selwyn to be an interesting character, and I'd like to learn more about him. 

He might be interesting. But I really don't think we can call this guy a character yet. He is just a name at this point.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne had a score or so men-at-arms with her when she joined Renly, but they did not accompany her to Storm's End.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

She didn't show up there completely empty-handed but her father didn't send any of his retainers with her, either