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Angel Eyes

Did Renly even need to declare himself King?

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So this is an extension of my post on the Unconventional Opinions dumpsterfire of a thread, but if you go by the Great Council of 101 AC's rulings and Viserys II taking the throne ahead of his nieces, Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession. So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

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1) It's possible Stannis could have a son, invalidating Renly's claim

2) Renly didn't want to wait years or decades to get the crown. It would've interfered with the narrative of his own story where he's the hero.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So this is an extension of my post on the Unconventional Opinions dumpsterfire of a thread, but if you go by the Great Council of 101 AC's rulings and Viserys II taking the throne ahead of his nieces, Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession. So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

Renly was scared of the Lannister’s, he did not have a good relationship with Stannis and the Tyrells would not support Stannis and his Florent wife. I posted a previous topic a couple weeks ago that Renly and the Tyrells should have stayed neutral and waited to see if Stannis gets killed or defeated and attainted. Then Renly would at least have a have a semi legitimate claim, if he accepted and used the twincest propaganda. But if Renly and the Tyrells stay neutral would Stannis even leave Dragonstone with only 5k men?

Renly thought he was safe with his big army and had no way of knowing Stannis had a shadow baby.

If Renly agreed to support Stannis and become his heir the chances of Stannis producing a male heir with Selise are slim but Stannis could live for several more decades while Renly waits and could loose his power base.

Of course if Renly knew Stannis had a sorceress, he would have agreed to renounce his claim and support Stannis despite the Tyrell opposition. Stannis would have an accident at the Blackwater and Renly is now the next legit Baratheon. Then suddenly the Tyrells show up and take Kingslanding in the name of king Renly. Now Tywin is stuck at Harrenhal pinned between the Starks and Tyrells. But GRRM needed Renly to die, the Lannister’s to live and Stannis to fail.

Edited by The Merling King

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27 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession.

That's not a given, since we don't know how things work for Baratheons or if Stannis wanted to make her the heir. Besides Stannis could have a son, that was his aim.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So this is an extension of my post on the Unconventional Opinions dumpsterfire of a thread, but if you go by the Great Council of 101 AC's rulings and Viserys II taking the throne ahead of his nieces, Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession. So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

Stannis does not rebel till after both Renly and Robb have. Renly's not psychic. Stannis never told him his plans, he only declares after Renly has done so and made promises to those who support him.

Are you under the impression that Renly declared after Stannis?

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Yes he needed. Stannis had no political timing in making his claim, he wasted weeks or mounths sulking in DS after Robert and Eddard deaths.

Renly was afraid for his life and Stannis is not reliable.

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Posted (edited)

One thing to consider, is that Renly staked his claim in AGOT almost immediately after Ned's execution. Stannis doesn't make his until nearly a third of the way through Clash. He wastes months sulking and plotting. If he'd sent out his claim the minute Ned was arrested, Robb would know about the incest by the time he free's Riverrun. At that point he might well have thrown in with Stannis before the idea of independence could even enter the GreatJon's head. It was the hesitation about what to do when the supposed rightful heir was a tyrant and the only other claimant last in line for the throne that led to that mess.

Edited by Adam Yozza

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Renly wanted glory, and he wanted the throne like right now. He didnt want to wait for Stannis to die. And he didnt want all the glory to go to Stannis. If Stannis dies, and Renly succeeds, he’ll just be the brother that inherited the throne not the king whom took it from the Lannisters.

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9 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Renly wanted glory,

No, if that was the case he'd not have wanted Ned to be Hand and Joffrey King.

His main motivation was removing Cersei from power, not glory for himself. Now that is not to say self-preservation and glory are mutually exclusive, but the main reason he rebels is self-preservation after his warning to Ned and then Ned's subsequent arrest.

9 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

 

and he wanted the throne like right now.

Again, not true considering his original offer to support Ned's coup.

Renly and the Tyrells were called to Kings Landing to renew their oaths to Joffrey or be declared enemies of the realm. Renly had to make a decision 1) risk being arrested and executed like Ned was, 2) flee the realm 3) rebel.

At that time Stannis was not an option as he had not declared. Also it may well be that the Tyrells and other Reach and Stormlords would not rebel against Robert's children for Stannis. The difference between Renly and Stannis challenging Joffrey may well be the margins of victory.

9 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

 

He didnt want to wait for Stannis to die.

eh? Stannis did not declare himself till after Robb and Renly did.

No one expects Robb to put down his crown once he put it on, why do some of the same people expect Renly, with the largest army in the realm, do the same?

 

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Renly declared himself king because he wanted to be king.

There was no need for him to declare himself king to save his life or any such shit. He could have called his banners to defy the Lannister or persuade the Tyrells to do the same without also wearing a crown. That wasn't necessary. He wanted to be king, period.

And in my opinion the chance is pretty good that he already wanted to be king back when he made his offer to Ned. He wanted to use Ned to get Robert's children into his hands to eventually do away with them and crown himself.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There was no need for him to declare himself king to save his life or any such shit. He could have called his banners to defy the Lannister or persuade the Tyrells to do the same without also wearing a crown. That wasn't necessary. He wanted to be king, period.

And why would the Tyrells oblige?? Wearing a crown seemed the likeliest way to keep breathing.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, frenin said:

And why would the Tyrells oblige?? Wearing a crown seemed the likeliest way to keep breathing.

Because he is fucking Loras and Mace does everything his favorite son asks of him?

Crowning yourself means you have to come to blows with the Iron Throne. Just raising your banners and perhaps offering your help against other foes - which is what Doran Martell uses to get Myrcella Baratheon and a seat on the council - could help you much better to save yourself and gain power in the new government.

It is ludicrous to assume 'King Joffrey' could afford to execute or murder his uncle Renly - a great lord in his own right - or antagonize the greatest power in the entire Realm while they are already at war with the Starks and Tullys and possibly the Arryns as well. If Renly had remained at court he may have become a hostage in the new Lannister regime, but I don't think anyone would have murdered or executed him. That would have given them just another bloody rebellion.

Not to mention that Renly should have had word about what transpired elsewhere when he finally crowned himself - meaning he would have known that the Lannisters were attacked from all sides, that there was war in the Riverlands (I don't think he knew about Ned's execution yet when he crowned himself - Tywin and Robb learn about that very quickly after the battles they fought), etc. That indicates he was no longer in any real danger since he had the power to offer himself as an ally to anyone. He could have joined forces with Joffrey, Robb, or Stannis.

Instead he likely looked at the situation as it unfolded and realized that the best thing to do would to use this mess to make himself king. He could have succeeded at that without spilling much blood himself by having the Starks/Tullys and Lannisters weaken each other, so he has just to clean up the mess. In an ideal scenario for him Robb would have attacked KL to put down Cersei and the children.

As he reveals, he never expected Stannis to rebel since he never knew about the twincest.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because he is fucking Loras and Mace does everything his favorite son asks of him?

Does he now?? I sure miss that part, can you quoye it?? The fact that Loras and Renly are boning doesn't mean that the Tyrells, let alone the Reach lords would go against Robert's sons for no reason, there must be an important push and Renly gave them a motive by crowning himself.

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Crowning yourself means you have to come to blows with the Iron Throne. Just raising your banners and perhaps offering your help against other foes - which is what Doran Martell uses to get Myrcella Baratheon and a seat on the council - could help you much better to save yourself and gain power in the new government.

Except that Renly does not trust in the new government and wants that new government undone at one, which is why he is ok with Joffrey ruling as long as a non lannister familiar face is calling the shots.

 

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is ludicrous to assume 'King Joffrey' could afford to execute or murder his uncle Renly - a great lord in his own right - or antagonize the greatest power in the entire Realm while they are already at war with the Starks and Tullys and possibly the Arryns as well. If Renly had remained at court he may have become a hostage in the new Lannister regime, but I don't think anyone would have murdered or executed him. That would have given them just another bloody rebellion.

And that's exactly what he doesn't want, Renly does not trust the Lannisters, Renly rightly believes that the Lannisters want to kill him and Renly does not want the Lannisters behind the throne, all that is more than a reason to rebel.

 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that Renly should have had word about what transpired elsewhere when he finally crowned himself - meaning he would have known that the Lannisters were attacked from all sides, that there was war in the Riverlands (I don't think he knew about Ned's execution yet when he crowned himself - Tywin and Robb learn about that very quickly after the battles they fought), etc. That indicates he was no longer in any real danger since he had the power to offer himself as an ally to anyone. He could have joined forces with Joffrey, Robb, or Stannis.

Renly has no interest in joining Robb and Robb at the time is considered a green boy who soon would fall under Tywin, Stannis is awol and there is no reason for him to betray Robert's sons and Joffrey is the one who threatens him.

 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead he likely looked at the situation as it unfolded and realized that the best thing to do would to use this mess to make himself king. He could have succeeded at that without spilling much blood himself by having the Starks/Tullys and Lannisters weaken each other, so he has just to clean up the mess. In an ideal scenario for him Robb would have attacked KL to put down Cersei and the children.

I doubt so, i think that Renly only plan to kick back and chill in the south when it's apparent that Robb is a capable commander and that he had a real chance to win, or at least severly weaken the Lannisters. He crowns himself soon after, the second battle of Riverrun.

 

 

 

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One important thing to consider here is if he knew about the illegitimacy of Joff and the rest. If he did and Cersei knew about him knowing it, and he knew about Cersei knowing about him knowing it, then he is right to think that his life was in danger. Otherwise it just seems stupid to think that Cersei would actually kill him for no reason(dislike or even hate him? yes, but killing him seems to just be too extreme) So in that case crowning himself was just for glory and power.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

One thing to consider, is that Renly staked his claim in AGOT almost immediately after Ned's execution. Stannis doesn't make his until nearly a third of the way through Clash. He wastes months sulking and plotting. If he'd sent out his claim the minute Ned was arrested, Robb would know about the incest by the time he free's Riverrun. At that point he might well have thrown in with Stannis before the idea of independence could even enter the GreatJon's head. It was the hesitation about what to do when the supposed rightful heir was a tyrant and the only other claimant last in line for the throne that led to that mess.

Saying Stannis wastes months sulking is not supported by the text.I mean c'mon he literally has an army that can be beaten by house Frey alone. So you can't really blame him for wanting to cautious and not do something rash like crowning himself king. Here is a quote from him 

“I trusted in his wisdom and your wiles, and what did they avail me, smuggler? The storm lords sent you packing. I went to them a beggar and they laughed at me. Well, there will be no more begging, and no more laughing either. The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships . . . and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.”-Stannis to Davos-A Clash of Kings

So it is clear that Stannis only declared himself king after knowing about Melisandre's powers. Whether he knew about the shadowbaby or just thought that Mel had forseen his death in her fires is not revealed. But it can be safe to assume that Stannis didn't  declare himself king and attack Renly without having at least an idea of what is going to happen. So until he was absolutely convinced of Mel's powers, he could not claim the throne as he saw it as being too risky. Perhaps it took him a long time to really make sure of Melisandre's powers or something but I cannot simply say that he was just sulking.

Edited by EccentricHorse11
Clarity and Grammar

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On 5/6/2020 at 11:33 AM, Angel Eyes said:

So this is an extension of my post on the Unconventional Opinions dumpsterfire of a thread, but if you go by the Great Council of 101 AC's rulings and Viserys II taking the throne ahead of his nieces, Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession. So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

Renly being heir is insufficient for him. We know this because Stannis offered to let Renly be his heir while they fought the Lannisters together, and Renly refused.

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4 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

One important thing to consider here is if he knew about the illegitimacy of Joff and the rest. If he did and Cersei knew about him knowing it, and he knew about Cersei knowing about him knowing it, then he is right to think that his life was in danger. Otherwise it just seems stupid to think that Cersei would actually kill him for no reason(dislike or even hate him? yes, but killing him seems to just be too extreme) So in that case crowning himself was just for glory and power.

Renly has no clue about the twincest.

4 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Saying Stannis wastes months sulking is not supported by the text.I mean c'mon he literally has an army that can be beaten by house Frey alone. So you can't really blame him for wanting to cautious and not do something rash like crowning himself king. Here is a quote from him 

“I trusted in his wisdom and your wiles, and what did they avail me, smuggler? The storm lords sent you packing. I went to them a beggar and they laughed at me. Well, there will be no more begging, and no more laughing either. The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it? There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships . . . and I have her. The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.”-Stannis to Davos-A Clash of Kings

So it is clear that Stannis only declared himself king after knowing about Melisandre's powers. Whether he knew about the shadowbaby or just thought that Mel had forseen his death in her fires is not revealed. But it can be safe to assume that Stannis didn't  declare himself king and attack Renly without having at least an idea of what is going to happen. So until he was absolutely convinced of Mel's powers, he could not claim the throne as he saw it as being too risky. Perhaps it took him a long time to really make sure of Melisandre's powers or something but I cannot simply say that he was just sulking.

Stannis has long ago crowned himself before he hears word of Renly's would-be usurpation. He is introduced as 'King Stannis' and his daughter as 'Princess Shireen' in the Prologue of ACoK, long before he sends his letters.

Stannis made a glaring and completely stupid mistake by not publicly declaring his claim immediately after he learned about Robert's death, but it is quite clear he crowned himself king immediately after Robert died.

What's unclear throughout those early weeks and months is how he will go about to take what he thinks is his by right, not that he is going to do that.

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On 5/6/2020 at 1:05 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis does not rebel till after both Renly and Robb have. Renly's not psychic. Stannis never told him his plans, he only declares after Renly has done so and made promises to those who support him.

Are you under the impression that Renly declared after Stannis?

I would argue that the prologue of A Clash of Kings specifically shows that Stannis declared before Renly because when Davos goes to the Stormlands, Renly hasnt declared yet. That would also mean he declares before Robb as well, since Robb hears about Renly's crowning during his own.

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4 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

One important thing to consider here is if he knew about the illegitimacy of Joff and the rest. If he did and Cersei knew about him knowing it, and he knew about Cersei knowing about him knowing it, then he is right to think that his life was in danger. Otherwise it just seems stupid to think that Cersei would actually kill him for no reason(dislike or even hate him? yes, but killing him seems to just be too extreme) So in that case crowning himself was just for glory and power.

As others note, all the evidence -- from Pycelle, Cersei, Catelyn, Renly -- is that he did not know about it.

That said, it's not stupid to think Cersei was going to move against him and Stannis because as Robert's brothers they would have a claim on having some involvement (possibly as regents) for her son. In any case,  Varys explicitly tells Ned in the cells:

Quote

The queen would not have waited long in any case. Robert was becoming unruly, and she needed to be rid of him to free her hands to deal with his brothers.

 

4 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Saying Stannis wastes months sulking is not supported by the text.

He does not inform the realm he is contesting for the throne, and the basis for it, until the ravens are sent in ACoK. According to one of the best fan-made timelines trying to piece it all together, the time between Robert's death and Stannis's proclamation is ~5 months, while the time between Robert's death and Renly being crowned in Highgarden is ~3 months. 

Stannis certainly had some reason to keep quiet, but taking that long to even let people know he was contesting for the Iron Throne was a mistake. It's hard to blame Renly for moving in this regard.

 

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

I would argue that the prologue of A Clash of Kings specifically shows that Stannis declared before Renly because when Davos goes to the Stormlands, Renly hasnt declared yet. That would also mean he declares before Robb as well, since Robb hears about Renly's crowning during his own.

What Davos says is that Renly has formed a Rainbow Guard, which is news. Cressen and co. already knew that Renly had crowned himself. 

It's certainly true that Stannis would believe himself rightful king and go by that style on Dragonstone when he received news of Robert's death, but it's also clear that the day they send the letter is even in Stannis's own view his public proclamation. After all, the letter contains this wording:

Quote

By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.

 

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