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Ygrain

R + L = J v.167

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

A bunch of long winded bullshit you've already spewed over and over, which has no more support from the books this time than it did every other time. Maybe spend less time creating fan fiction and more time actually reading the books.

These are the kind of 'opinions' people offer when they don't have any arguments left. It is quite interesting to see how often one gets stuff like that instead of an actual response.

Prior to that it was invented arguments like 'the Targaryens/Westerosi have to see polygamy as super normal and okay because else their kings no longer are their kings', so I guess this can count as an improvement in the sense that you understand you don't have any arguments you can actually base on published works.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You guys crack me up.

The parallel here, with Rhaegar and Lya, is actually Maegor and Alys again. Like with Maegor and Ceryse we can expect that Rhaegar, if he indeed married Lyanna, wanted to retire/rid himself of Elia as a wife because she no longer was his wife in the actual dynastic meaning of the word, i.e. as potential mother of more children. Her womb could no longer carry, either because she couldn't or because a pregnancy would definitely kill her (as per the professional opinion of the maesters).

There is a slight difference there, of course, in the sense that Rhaegar the Lusty got two children by his first wife, whereas Maegor did not ... but it is inconceivable in my opinion (and that's some guesswork on my part on the basis of Lya and Rhaegar's characters given so far) that Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted enter into some sort of polygamous threesome marriage.

For one, as you point out, that wouldn't be Lya's thing. And it is also not likely that Rhaegar wanted to have more than one wife. He wanted Lyanna and nobody else. In a sense this is also reflective of Aegon I - who took both Visenya and Rhaenys to wife so he could have Rhaenys. If he could have had Rhaenys without Visenya he would have likely preferred that option.

Rhaegar seems to have loved Lyanna - and he never loved Elia - and if Lya loved Rhaegar in turn then they would have seen their relationship as the real marriage, and the Elia-Rhaegar thing as an affair of the past, even if the marriage had never been formally dissolved.

It is pretty clear to me that a King Rhaegar would have had only one queen - Lyanna Stark, not Elia Martell. She may have been the mother of his children, and they may have remained his legitimate heirs and all ... but their marriage would not continue.

In the same sense Maegor effectively ended his marriage with Ceryse when he married Alys - them no longer living together, no longer having sex, and Maegor not taking Ceryse with him to exile. The marriage only proper continued after their second wedding and bedding at the Hightower in 43 AC after Maegor had become king.

Which, to the people who actually read things thoroughly, is another instance proving that marriages can be ended and restarted. Like Jaehaerys-Alysanne later in 50 AC, Maegor-Ceryse needed a second wedding and a formal stipulation of the new harem situation thing for their marriage to commence. For Jaehaerys-Alysanne people also see the two quarrels as eras in which those marriages stopped, because the king and queen no longer lived together (although that's certainly less of an issue than the period of 49-50 AC and 39-43 AC during which it wasn't even clear that Jaehaerys-Alysanne and Maegor-Ceryse were (still) married).

This alone should give anybody pause who believes or tries to make a case that a secret wedding of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the middle of nowhere would have necessarily been seen as binding.

If two kings who are already lawfully married feel the need to reinforce that they are married by having another public wedding then this obviously means that they were not of the opinion that the people at large thought they were lawfully married, right?

4 hours ago, Mithras said:

For the time being, the winning position is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in some fashion.

No one exactly knows what GRRM will do with Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy.

No one exactly knows how the characters in the story will react to Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy (if it ever becomes public knowledge).

LV might feel authorized to speak in the name of us or the characters inside the story about the stuff that is still unwritten, by typing things like "nobody would do this" or "nobody would believe that" etc. Thank you but no. I am allowed to have my own opinions about the things I read in the books. If there was a marriage, then it is done for me. If LV can't handle that, or if any character inside the story will have a problem with that (if it ever becomes public knowledge), too bad for them. It is their problem, not mine. 

I made an analogy there, as you (would?) know if you actually read what I wrote.

I made the rather easily understandable comparison between the political repercussions (spoiler: so far: none) Stannis' little story about Cersei's children had on the legitimacy of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen and the hypothetical political repercussions the 'revelation' about the truth of Jon Snow's parentage might have.

If great lord like Stannis cannot convince people that his brother's children aren't his brother's children, then how do we imagine some wetnurse and an obscure crannogman shape the minds of millions? That is just very difficult to imagine, isn't it? I'm right there - literally nobody believed Stannis' little calumny there, did they? Or can you name me a single lord, knight, or man-at-arms who abandoned King Joffrey (or any of the other pretenders) because of Stannis' silly little claim that he was 'the rightful king'? I don't recall any such person.

If you want to convince me or anyone that people (or who exactly) you think would likely believe Jon Snow's origin story for what reason I'm all ears. You might even make a pretty good case. But I myself cannot really come up with a scenario where anybody would want to believe that Eddard Stark's bastard was in truth a Targaryen prince whose parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. That kind of story is in S(elsye)+P(atchface)=S(hireen) territory.

This is significant, because it shows how the author wants us, the readers, to see truth in relation to power in this world. Truth is irrelevant if not backed by/spoken by powerful people.

And interestingly enough George also sent us the message that low/obscure birth and upbringing never goes away. Even if Jon Snow were to mount a dragon - which I very much expect he will - it would not be a guarantee that people will believe his freaky, fairy-tale origin story (especially not after Aegon just claimed pretty much the same thing ... and may turn out to be a fraud). Hugh and Ulf and Nettles and Addam of Hull claimed dragons, too - did them no good, didn't make them princes or kings. Instead they were put down by their own allies, vilified as witches who cheated their way into becoming a dragonrider, or were accused of treason because of their backgrounds.

This is all very fine, complex, and multi-layered framework for how power and legitimacy are shaped by circumstances.

Jon Snow needs to claw his way to power all by himself, with means and talents and characteristics given to him as a person, not by virtue of being this or that person's 'legitimate child'.

If he grew into a great leader in his own right then him becoming a dragonrider will make him stronger. But if he were still a nobody with just a band of ragged starving Northmen by that time, then even a dragon wouldn't make him much more impressive.

Nettles had a dragon, too, but she couldn't conquer Westeros, either. She wasn't even able to make himself the queen of the clansmen.

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Every regular here has already torn your long winded fan fictions to shreds so many times, nobody has an obligation to keep doing it over and over again. No hard feelings, but it's clear you have written your own story in your head that nobody here paid or asked for. You have offered literally no proof for any of your baseless assertions about polygamy, and that's because there is none. Neither Jaehaerys nor the Faith ever accepted or imposed a ban on Targs wedding more than one wife. It wasn't something they did frequently anyway, but definitely something there's no evidence they agreed to be banned from. I am not interested in wasting time on verbose arguments based entirely baseless opinion with no support from the books.

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8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

It is interesting. R+L can't even be placed on the same continent as eachother after the Harrenhal Tourney and fans are stuck in heated debate about whether or not their theoretical marriage was legal.

Where have I heard this phrasing... oh, hello, JNR. New account, I see.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Maybe because he'd feel like it, lack of love doesn't mean  lack of desire and nothing we know about their relationship hint repulsion. So, it isn't really one bed. It's two and Rhaegar making the call at any time he wants.

Two still doesn't equal infidelity and promiscuity, though.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Two still doesn't equal infidelity and promiscuity, though

And yet it equals to more than one bed, which is what Lyanna was complaining about.

Didn't realize that she was setting a minimum bar in her conversation with Ned.  

But ofc if you get to marry all your lovers ... Can't be called cheating if you marry all of them...

Edited by frenin

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Like 65,000 posts into discussing a theory that doesn't have a single word of supporting evidence in the canon text and y'all are stuck pretending Dorne and Elia and Co. would have been perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking on a 2nd wife. All in a futile attempt to make Jon the #1 Targaryen heir. 

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1 hour ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Like 65,000 posts into discussing a theory that doesn't have a single word of supporting evidence in the canon text and y'all are stuck pretending Dorne and Elia and Co. would have been perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking on a 2nd wife. All in a futile attempt to make Jon the #1 Targaryen heir. 

I do believe @Ygrain is right about your secret identity. Shall we continue fruitless debates over "canon?" No, probably not.

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15 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Every regular here has already torn your long winded fan fictions to shreds so many times, nobody has an obligation to keep doing it over and over again. No hard feelings, but it's clear you have written your own story in your head that nobody here paid or asked for. You have offered literally no proof for any of your baseless assertions about polygamy, and that's because there is none. Neither Jaehaerys nor the Faith ever accepted or imposed a ban on Targs wedding more than one wife. It wasn't something they did frequently anyway, but definitely something there's no evidence they agreed to be banned from. I am not interested in wasting time on verbose arguments based entirely baseless opinion with no support from the books.

Hmm, baseless opinion with no support from the books.  Kind of like how Rhaegar, Elia, or Lyanna would be in any way in favor of a polygamous marriage?

But regardless, if you are so invested in Jon being the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar, I understand the need to try and concoct a polygamous relationship.  After all the alternative is the one that the HBO abomination gave us, which was Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia (preposterous) and naming his child with Lyanna Aegon Targaryen, basically disinheriting his first born son who he named the prince that was promised (at least in the books).  So at the very least you seem to realize how fundamentally flawed the show's version was in their attempt to make Jon a "legitimate" Targaryen.

But for those of you believing that the HBO show has somehow confirmed that Jon is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar Targaryen let me suggest an alternative.  That D & D are talentless hacks.  

And as an example of their "hackery", keep in mind that the show decided that the books contained too many characters.  One of the characters left on the chopping room floor, was Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen,  who was purported to be the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  The noble lad who Varys champions as the person best suited to take the Iron Throne.  

Sound familiar?  It should, because that was the character that Kit Harrington played in addition to playing Jon Snow.  The show merely merged Jon Snow with Young Griff.  Which is why it appeared that Kit was teleporting back and forth from the North to the South.  He was in essence playing two characters at the same time.  

Which is why we get the cringey reveal of Jon Snow as Aegon Targaryen through Gilley's reading of a septon's journal.  And the even cringier confirmation through Bran TV.  

So perhaps Dany needs someone purporting to have a more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne to her own to further her own internal conflict.  Fortunately for the reader we don't need Jon Snow to play that role because we have Young Griff.  Hence, there is no reason for us to try and contort the plot and the backstory to try and shoe horn Jon into the role of a legitimate claimant.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hmm, baseless opinion with no support from the books.  Kind of like how Rhaegar, Elia, or Lyanna would be in any way in favor of a polygamous marriage?

@Frey family reunion

RLJ simply means that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

RLJ theories take many different shapes and forms.
Some RLJ theories hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't wed.
Some hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed.
Some hold that Elia gave Rhaegar a "hall-pass" to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar never asked for Elia's blessing.
Some hold that Elia never gave Rhaegar her blessing whether or not he asked.
Some hold that Rhaegar set out to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar impulsively wed and/or impregnated Lyanna.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will never sit a throne.
Some hold that Jon will sit the Iron Throne.
Some hold that Jon will never be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.

The common denominator between them all is that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, if you are so invested in Jon being the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar, I understand the need to try and concoct a polygamous relationship.  After all the alternative is the one that the HBO abomination gave us, which was Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia (preposterous) and naming his child with Lyanna Aegon Targaryen, basically disinheriting his first born son who he named the prince that was promised (at least in the books).  So at the very least you seem to realize how fundamentally flawed the show's version was in their attempt to make Jon a "legitimate" Targaryen.

But for those of you believing that the HBO show has somehow confirmed that Jon is the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar Targaryen let me suggest an alternative.  That D & D are talentless hacks.  

And as an example of their "hackery", keep in mind that the show decided that the books contained too many characters.  One of the characters left on the chopping room floor, was Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen,  who was purported to be the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen.  The noble lad who Varys champions as the person best suited to take the Iron Throne.  

Sound familiar?  It should, because that was the character that Kit Harrington played in addition to playing Jon Snow.  The show merely merged Jon Snow with Young Griff.  Which is why it appeared that Kit was teleporting back and forth from the North to the South.  He was in essence playing two characters at the same time.  

Which is why we get the cringey reveal of Jon Snow as Aegon Targaryen through Gilley's reading of a septon's journal.  And the even cringier confirmation through Bran TV.  

So perhaps Dany needs someone purporting to have a more legitimate claim to the Iron Throne to her own to further her own internal conflict.  Fortunately for the reader we don't need Jon Snow to play that role because we have Young Griff.  Hence, there is no reason for us to try and contort the plot and the backstory to try and shoe horn Jon into the role of a legitimate claimant.

Theories that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed and that Jon is their legitimate son were based on/contemporary with the releases of AGOT and ACOK, decades before the show, or its adaptation of Jon's parentage, so not sure what hot garbage you are going on about.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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11 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Frey family reunion

RLJ simply means that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

RLJ theories take many different shapes and forms.
Some RLJ theories hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't wed.
Some hold that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed.
Some hold that Elia gave Rhaegar a "hall-pass" to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar never asked for Elia's blessing.
Some hold that Elia never gave Rhaegar her blessing whether or not he asked.
Some hold that Rhaegar set out to wed and/or impregnate Lyanna.
Some hold that Rhaegar impulsively wed and/or impregnated Lyanna.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard.
Some hold that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will never sit a throne.
Some hold that Jon will sit the Iron Throne.
Some hold that Jon will never be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.
Some hold that Jon will be learned by Westeros to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard/legitimate child.

The common denominator between them all is that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Theories that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed and that Jon is their legitimate son were based on/contemporary with the releases of AGOT and ACOK, decades before the show, or its adaptation of Jon's parentage, so not sure what hot garbage you are going on about.

What they all have in common is that they are not supported by the canon text. 

For one, Jon's mother is a mystery. Not his father. The very idea that Jon's father is a mystery is itself only a fan theory. One that is not at all supported by the canon text. 

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2 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Like 65,000 posts into discussing a theory that doesn't have a single word of supporting evidence in the canon text and y'all are stuck pretending Dorne and Elia and Co. would have been perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking on a 2nd wife. All in a futile attempt to make Jon the #1 Targaryen heir. 

Sure. Whatever.

 

35 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hmm, baseless opinion with no support from the books.  Kind of like how Rhaegar, Elia, or Lyanna would be in any way in favor of a polygamous marriage?

...and the usual tactics are back. Shifting milestones, are we?

The fact is that the Targaryen royal line was started by a polygamous trio. The fact is that while "incest is a sin blah blah", no such line exists about polygamy. The fact is that several characters consider polygamy an option. And in Rhaegar's situation, polygamy would enable him to keep his cake and eat it, too. Coincidence?

You may not consider this strong enough to be swayed but you cannot say there aren't pieces which allow for such an interpretation. 

 

35 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That D & D are talentless hacks.  

At least something we can agree on.

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12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

RLJ simply means that Jon is the biological son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Yes, I understand that.  I’m specifically responding to this theory of making Jon “legitimate” through a polygamous relationship.

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Theories that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed and that Jon is their legitimate son were based on/contemporary with the releases of AGOT and ACOK, decades before the show, or its adaptation of Jon's parentage, so not sure what hot garbage you are going on about.

I’m referring to @Mithras since he seems to hold the show in such high regard.

But yes, I understand that people have been straining to make Jon a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne for quite some time.  What I suggest is that you take a good hard look at Jon’s story arc, the arc that the author has taken five books to build upon.

Jon’s internal conflict is his oath to the Wall vs his desire for Winterfell.  It’s a conflict that the author has continued to highlight up until Jon’s untimely “demise”.  To believe that Jon within the course of two books is going to cast aside that conflict to take up a claim for the Iron Throne seems very unlikely at this point.

And then we have the practicalities to consider.  What faction has a vested interest in promoting Jon as a claimant to an Iron Throne. Which is why the fictitious legitimacy from a secret marriage no one knows about is worth less than the paper it’s not written on.

 

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Just now, TheLastWolf said:

Yet for all our discussions, Jon could could end up being Brandon and Ashara's bastard (remember Barristan telling about her getting dishonored at Harrenhal) 

Definitely not.

1) Timeline issues, 2) not necessary for Ned to cover up for Brandon, 3) no point making him Brandon's bastard instead of Ned's bastard etc.

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The fact is that the Targaryen royal line was started by a polygamous trio. The fact is that while "incest is a sin blah blah", no such line exists about polygamy. The fact is that several characters consider polygamy an option. And in Rhaegar's situation, polygamy would enable him to keep his cake and eat it, too. Coincidence?

I never really understood the saying, “have your cake and eat it too”.  After all what else are you going to do with a cake?

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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But yes, I understand that people have been straining to make Jon a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne for quite some time.  What I suggest is that you take a good hard look at Jon’s story arc, the arc that the author has taken five books to build upon.

Jon’s internal conflict is his oath to the Wall vs his desire for Winterfell.  It’s a conflict that the author has continued to highlight up until Jon’s untimely “demise”.  To believe that Jon within the course of two books is going to cast aside that conflict to take up a claim for the Iron Throne seems very unlikely at this point.

And then we have the practicalities to consider.  What faction has a vested interest in promoting Jon as a claimant to an Iron Throne. Which is why the fictitious legitimacy from a secret marriage no one knows about is worth less than the paper it’s not written on.

You're kinda mixing textual support with attempts to predict an outcome but nvm.

Jon's arc also includes rising up to the occasion and assuming leadership which he didn't ask for but had to take up, anyway, because he either remained the only capable (the defence of the Wall) or through someone's politicking (the election). Could Jon again become the last candidate standing to lead the united defences? Could he again become a compromise candidate when neither of the other candidates can garner enough support? In either case, not because he wants to become king but because it allows him to fulfill his oath to defend the realms of men, by any means necessary? 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I never really understood the saying, “have your cake and eat it too”.  After all what else are you going to do with a cake?

Because the idiom is "keep", not "have" :-) As in, keep it for later. Two mutually exclusive actions. 

If a normal guy has a wife and a mistress, he has to choose, one or the other. Only someone with a history of polygamy in the family might avoid the choice - gee, isn't Rhaegar a lucky dog, to happen to have such a background in a situation when he would mightily need it? What a bloody coincidence. And since the solution is rather unusual, to put it mildly, it's not like people would automatically assume that's what happened, right?

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3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Like 65,000 posts into discussing a theory that doesn't have a single word of supporting evidence in the canon text and y'all are stuck pretending Dorne and Elia and Co. would have been perfectly fine with Rhaegar taking on a 2nd wife. All in a futile attempt to make Jon the #1 Targaryen heir. 

 

30 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

What they all have in common is that they are not supported by the canon text. 

For one, Jon's mother is a mystery. Not his father. The very idea that Jon's father is a mystery is itself only a fan theory. One that is not at all supported by the canon text. 

I'm still a noob and don't know/forgot who JNR is, so I'll bite. Let's talk about this "canon text"!

 

In Eddard XII, Ned thinks to himself and lists all of his children by name in the order they were born:

Quote

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

yet Jon's name is not in that list. Why isn't Jon's name in that list?

 

I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this question from anyone who denies R+L=J. What I have heard are things like

  • Jon's name is implied to be in the list (me: it may be implied, but it's definitely not actually in the list).
  • Ned is thinking about what Catelyn would do (me: he does, after he first thinks about what he would do).
  • Jon is Ned's bastard, so he shouldn't be in the same list as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon (me: Cersei only asked Ned whether he loves his children, not whether he loves his children with Catelyn).
  • Ned still thinks of Jon (me: this dodges my question, which is why doesn't Ned list Jon's name together with Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon when Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position).

So why, in the "canon text," when Ned is thinking about what he would do if he were in Jaime/Cersei's position, does Ned exclude Jon's name from the named list of his children in the order they were born?

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54 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m referring to @Mithras since he seems to hold the show in such high regard.

I will keep holding D&D in a much higher regard than random people on the internet who have not talked to George to learn his secrets.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/28/2020 at 2:03 AM, Buried Treasure said:

Another question is why Lyanna would have been to the second wife, rather than setting Elia aside or asking her to join a convent. My explanation is that Rhaegar wasn't planning anything - he eloped with Lyanna a year after first meeting her because he was acting rashly after learning that Aegon was not his son and the PWWP, but a changling (Elia's stillborn daughter / Ashara's healthy bastard boy). But I know that is a niche theory and not accepted by most, but for those that say he was planning for a legitimate son to be the third head of the dragon, why does his hasty abandonment of Elia show so little sign of planning?


What’s your proof that Elia’s son isn’t his? Do you have any?

Edited by GoldenGail3

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