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James Steller

If you could choose who the valonqar is...

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Keep in mind, you can’t just pick a random person, it must be someone who meets the criteria of “valonqar” (which is a pretty vague definition anyway). To be more frank, who do you wish will kill Cersei?

For me, it’s Tyrion. I know that him killing Cersei is something that she’s convinced will happen, and so everyone has assumed that the valonqar being Tyrion is a red herring. But honestly, that would it make it a legitimate twist by this point. The idea of Jaime or Arya killing Cersei has been discussed to death (pun intended), and while I see the point of making it one of them, I have to go with Tyrion because that’s what Cersei fears most. And I want her to suffer for all that she’s done and is doing. Plus I want Tyrion to get some more vengeance against his family before he’s the last one standing to inherit Casterly Rock. Let him win brutally, but the cost will be that he becomes the monster that everyone assumed he was. He embraces his monstrous reputation like that Lannister king who shared his name. It would be a fitting, bittersweet portrayal of how destructive hate and vengeance are.

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Posted (edited)

Satin. He's a brother of the Nights Watch and he's more beautiful then Cersei.

Or maybe Tyrion already killed Cersei by sending Aegon her way. Just my opinion though.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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Personally, I think it'd be more satisfying if Jaime kills Cersei. She doesn't suspect him, and it would bring his own story full circle. He started things off by pushing a boy off a tower to protect Cersei. He'll end things by killing Cersei to protect the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. 

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Assuming that fAegon really is who they say he is, I want it to be him. There's something so poetic in Tywin Lannister ordering the deaths of Elia Martell and her children (and I buy that Tywin wanted Elia to suffer for daring to marry Rhaegar after Aerys turned Cersei down), only for his own daughter to be slain by the boy whom he thought he'd had killed.

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Tommen is the one I would love to see as Valonqar 

Between Jaime and Tyrion - I would pick Jaime. The reasons are pretty subjective, as I do not like Tyrion and i do not want him to do something as huge as killing Cersei. Jaime, on the other hand, I think would be epic and apart from forums like this one, unexpected, especially after how the Abomination ended. 

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The idea that it can be just anybody's little brother is just silly. That's like saying if the prophecy had been the dwarf monstrosity or the albino or the she-knight is going to kill her we would look for other characters like Tyrion, Bloodraven, Brienne, etc.

It is either Jaime or Tyrion, Cersei's two little brothers.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

It is either Jaime or Tyrion, Cersei's two little brothers.

So then which of the two do you want it to be?

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The valonqar is where my # 1 pick trips.   I'd like to see Brienne be forced to make the same choices Jamie had to make for the same reasons.   Brienne doesn't need the development so much as others but I would like to read Brienne's thoughts in this scenario.   Jamie being forced to kill his Queen twin is just so danged sad and repetitious.  It would be utterly damning to Jamie which isn't completely bad, I would just like to see if he can fit into the role he now sees for himself without this mess of killing Cersei.   Sorta the same for Tyrion.   He's already killed his father and though he does horrible things to Cersei in his thoughts I am hoping Tyrion gets higher minded.  Having discarded Cersei's own brothers and chosen a decidedly non-valonqar killer, looks like I have to go with Euron.   

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I want it to be Tommen (all due respect to Lord Varys' disqualifications).  I suspect when it's over and Cersei's actually dead (I'll totally miss her chapters, I hope her end comes late) there will be a couple of people who possibly qualify depending on how one looks at whatever events surround her death.  Someone told me once that expecting things to unfold the way some person prophesised is a good way to get your prick bitten off - or something to that effect.  Ultimately I believe that the person most responsible for the fall of Cersei Lannister will be Cersei herself no matter what roles these potential volonqars play.

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I would like it to be Arya, encouraged by Stoneheart or Sansa. Then I want Arya to turn away from vengeance, after she gets a load of Stoneheart wanting Jon’s death.

Euron seems like he may be in the right place at the right time.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is either Jaime or Tyrion, Cersei's two little brothers.

Cerseis little brother inlaw? She has 3 of them through Tyrion, brothers wifes brothers, or 6 of em through Jaime, brothers brothers. 

But that's just confusing, what's less confusing is Valyrians are woke like that and dont specify gender. So little brother (in law) is actually sister in law. Her brothers wife. The younger more beautiful queen

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10 hours ago, James Steller said:

So then which of the two do you want it to be?

Jaime, of course. That's the only good story there. Tyrion would be predictable as hell and even sort exonerate Cersei's paranoia.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cerseis little brother inlaw? She has 3 of them through Tyrion, brothers wifes brothers, or 6 of em through Jaime, brothers brothers. 

But that's just confusing, what's less confusing is Valyrians are woke like that and dont specify gender. So little brother (in law) is actually sister in law. Her brothers wife. The younger more beautiful queen

Far too complicated and weird. And Cersei's brothers-in-law would be Stannis and Renly.

Valyrians do specify gender - dragons are fluid, not Valyrian grammar.

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Tommen, after he has been killed and raised as a blue-eyed wight, of course. Then he will wrap his hands around her pale white throat, the way wights like to kill. And we get all of this through Cersei's POV, just like we did with Catelyn, and get a front row seat at her dying despair with the knowledge that she is the one who made this all happen.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Tommen, after he has been killed and raised as a blue-eyed wight, of course. Then he will wrap his hands around her pale white throat, the way wights like to kill. And we get all of this through Cersei's POV, just like we did with Catelyn, and get a front row seat at her dying despair with the knowledge that she is the one who made this all happen.

I actually do think it's Tommen, but the "hands" refers to Tommen's "Hands".  At least two of the numerous men that have held that ever rotating position.  My guess is that their manipulations will result in Cersei's death.  I specifically suspect Orton Merryweather and Mace Tyrell.

ETA: but I can't completely forgoe the possibility that Harys Swyft another former Hand of Tommen who is currently her envoy to the Iron Bank may play a part, even if it's unwittingly.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Clearly Jaime.

The main reasons are:

- Cersei expects Tyrion. She's so blind, she doesn't even consider anyone else. She has made many mistakes already by trusting the wrong people and chasing away the ones whom could have been trusted. This will probably be one of her last mistakes.

- Tyrion would be the obvious choice for anyone at first read. But prophecies don't work that way, they always contain a twist. You can argue, that after many years Jaime too became an obvious choice, as it is discussed a million times, and people constantly try to come up with new theories. But that's just because of the long delay between publishing of the books.

- It would totally fit into Jaime's character arc. In the first book he's the one who looks like the bad guy: arrogant, violent, throwing Bran down from the tower, attacking Ned and his men, cuckolding his king just for fun. Then we slowly learn that Cersei is a power-hungry, manipulating, cruel bitch, who doesn't care for anybody else, and that she uses even him. Meanwhile Jaime starts his so-called redemption by showing genuine care for others, trying to avoid bloodshed whenever possible, and finally breaking the connection with his mad sister.

Also, I totally agree with this:

On 7/21/2020 at 3:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that it can be just anybody's little brother is just silly. That's like saying if the prophecy had been the dwarf monstrosity or the albino or the she-knight is going to kill her we would look for other characters like Tyrion, Bloodraven, Brienne, etc.

It is either Jaime or Tyrion, Cersei's two little brothers.

 

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I don't expect Jaime's murder of Cersei being something that is going to redeem him. It is likely going to be some sort of personal revenge, very much the same thing he did with Aerys II. And this time it is going to something that's going to come after Cersei committed her many atrocities and monstrous crimes. He won't prevent anything with doing that.

And he won't survive this murder - Cersei will kill him as he kills her. They will die together as they were born, like Cersei said earlier.

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Posted (edited)

I still wonder if there is anything about the valonqar that can be gleaned from Cersei's dreams:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

Dawn was breaking over King's Landing when they climbed from the tub. The queen's skin was white and wrinkled from her long immersion. "Stay with me," she told Taena. "I do not want to sleep alone." She even said a prayer before she crawled beneath her coverlet, beseeching the Mother for sweet dreams.

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

She woke shuddering in Taena's arms. "A bad dream," she said weakly. "Did I scream? I'm sorry."

 

I suspect that Cersei's dreams are being invaded by someone who can use a glass candle.  Her dreams of the valonqar become ever more frequent and paranoid after Qyburn's arrival.  I don't think it is him but someone associated with him.  Someone who is covered with coarse hair.  It could be that our interpretation of the word valonqar is off.  Rather than meaning younger brother; it could also be a physical description meaning short in stature.  Of course this works both ways for Tyrion except that he isn't covered in coarse hair.  

We still don't know much about Marwyn but he strikes me as a 'dangerous friend."  Tyrion mentions that there was once a dwarf maester who served at the Fingers.  I think this is Marwyn.  We can suppose that he went to Littlefingers aid when he was cut from groin to breastbone by Brandon Stark.  Mirri Maaz Duur tells us she met him in Asshai and he showed her how to open bodies.  Could it be that valonqar is how he was addressed while travelling in Asshai?

When Sam meets Marwyn, he never says he is a dwarf; but what he describes are characteristics of dwarfism, especially the hands, also a feature of Cersei's dreams.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn."

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

So far, we have no reason to think that Marwyn is the volanqar but we do know what he thinks of prophecy:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

He was not a man to be refused. Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. "Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall."

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

There is no more treacherous a woman than Cersei. So the nature of her prophecy of the valonqar may be worth about as much as a gob of phlegm spat onto the floor as far as Cersei's fixation on Tyrion goes.  

Marwyn's bloody red mouth and the bloody mouth of Cersei's valonqar is another interesting juxtaposition.

At any rate, I'll be very interested to see what happens should Tyrion and Marwyn cross paths.

 

Edited by LynnS

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