US Politics - The Long Night

[mormont]

23 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There is a lot to be said for a national identity, where everyone is considered equal and everyone is working together for a shared goal. It's not surprising that is one of the elements that makes many right wing parties so successful.

This is not what right wing parties believe or profess. It is the opposite of what they believe, in fact,.

[ants]

8 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I think Heartofice has a point here. Why are the democrats been seen (sometimes unfairly) to only fighting for the rights of minorities. Wouldn't it be much better to fight for all poor people and workers as they used to do 20 year ago? Poor white people are also poor and have also much less chance than rich people. They have the same problems as any other people which are not well off. Why does it sometimes feel that the democrats are not interested in them any longer? It could be that these white poors feel offended and put off if there are told all the time how privileged they are.

Um, they do.  Its just that the media on both sides aren't interested in that.  The right media are interested in painting them as only into identity politics, and the left media like making a fuss about who is being victimized each day.  And the fact the Dems are fighting for everyone to have payments during COVID, everyone to have healthcare, everyone to have higher minimum wage, services that cover everyone .... just disappears in the wash.  

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Did you just link your own twitter post

Apparently what dragons demand are clicks to their social media pages.  I guess I owe Aegon III and the maesters an apology.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

One thing worth pointing out is how insane it is that we're all on the edge of our seats waiting on the results of a small handful of states, when there is virtually no chance that Trump will come out of this election having won more votes than his opponent.

All the discussion of how terrifying it is that Trump has the level of support he has and figuring out why that is and what, if anything, can be done about it, is important. But it's also really worth noting that it would matter a hell of a lot less if we lived under a rational system of government that didn't allow a political minority to impose its will on the majority. 

[Fury Resurrected]

Just now, Heartofice said:

The point is that it is perfectly possible to fight for racial equality etc whilst not making everything about race / gender, where every issue is viewed through that lens.

It's possible to get people on board to help improve a country without defining half the country as evil bigots. A shared national identity is a powerful tool to create a shared sense of purpose and togetherness. I think the far left have done everything they can to try and tear that down, just as they tear down national figures and history. It has proven to be an unpopular move and it's not surprising when there is pushback.

I get that you are not an American, so I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just unaware that “national identity” is 100% the cornerstone of white supremacists here. This country is comprised of only three groups- immigrant descended people, slave descended people, and indigenous people who are descended from the survivors of genocide. That’s all of the United States. And that’s why race matters an amount you don’t seem to understand. The whole country is founded upon a system to support the needs of a class of people who were not from here, who brought one group here as slaves against their will, and who tried to entirely eradicate the original inhabitants. The system still contains remnants of that, that make it harder for everyone who isn’t of that original ruling group of European immigrants. The original people of this continent still don’t have the same rights as the descendants of white settlers (I can provide specific examples of this if you would like). I’d be delighted if everything in my life experience was not different because I am female and indigenous out instead of male and white. And that’s the goal. To remove the obstacles preventing that. But to people who are living that- everything is about that- in ways we would like to change. To rail against that is punching down.

[DanteGabriel]

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yep. Stuff like this. This is what did it.

 

Oh.. yeah and stuff like this. 

This is lazy reflexive crap even for you. You used to put more effort into licking those boots 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I get that you are not an American, so I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just unaware that “national identity” is 100% the cornerstone of white supremacists here. This country is comprised of only three groups- immigrant descended people, slave descended people, and indigenous people who are descended from the survivors of genocide. That’s all of the United States. And that’s why race matters an amount you don’t seem to understand. The whole country is founded upon a system to support the needs of a class of people who were not from here, who brought one group here as slaves against their will, and who tried to entirely eradicate the original inhabitants. The system still contains remnants of that, that make it harder for everyone who isn’t of that original ruling group of European immigrants. The original people of this continent still don’t have the same rights as the descendants of white settlers (I can provide specific examples of this if you would like). I’d be delighted if everything in my life experience was not different because I am female and indigenous out instead of male and white. And that’s the goal. To remove the obstacles preventing that. But to people who are living that- everything is about that- in ways we would like to change. To rail against that is punching down.

Do you think stuff like this is vote winning?

[DanteGabriel]

4 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I get that you are not an American, so I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you are just unaware that “national identity” is 100% the cornerstone of white supremacists here. This country is comprised of only three groups- immigrant descended people, slave descended people, and indigenous people who are descended from the survivors of genocide. That’s all of the United States. And that’s why race matters an amount you don’t seem to understand. The whole country is founded upon a system to support the needs of a class of people who were not from here, who brought one group here as slaves against their will, and who tried to entirely eradicate the original inhabitants. The system still contains remnants of that, that make it harder for everyone who isn’t of that original ruling group of European immigrants. The original people of this continent still don’t have the same rights as the descendants of white settlers (I can provide specific examples of this if you would like). I’d be delighted if everything in my life experience was not different because I am female and indigenous out instead of male and white. And that’s the goal. To remove the obstacles preventing that. But to people who are living that- everything is about that- in ways we would like to change. To rail against that is punching down.

HoI is British. He first made an impression on me by saying in the UK thread that Americans were too ignorant of British culture to argue that Brexit had anything to do racism, and then lecturing people in the US thread about race relations in America. The intellectual honesty and consistency never really improved from there.

[Larry of the Lawn]

So now people are arguing against identity politics by suggesting that white nationalism needs to be featured in the left's platform.  Would be funny if it wasn't so fucked up.

[SeanF]

Assuming the system is loaded in favour of heterosexual white men, to what extent would you accept that system, in order to achieve electoral success?

[The Anti-Targ]

I can imagine a couple of Trump quotes to show how he is the winner:

"I won more votes than last time"

"I won more votes than Hillary Clinton did last time"

"I won more votes than Barak Obama in 2012, how can I win more votes than Barak Obama and people still won't declare me president?

[karaddin]

43 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

It’s a scary night for a lot of people. He’s definitely NOT a Trump voter. There’s definitely some covert Trump supporters around- but not him. We should all cut each other a bit of slack, we’re not playing Among Us about how we voted.

Yup agreed with this. There's going to be plenty of knives out over the next few weeks and then years if Trump hangs onto power, lets not use them on each tonight tonight.

26 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

I think Heartofice has a point here. Why are the democrats been seen (sometimes unfairly) to only fighting for the rights of minorities. Wouldn't it be much better to fight for all poor people and workers as they used to do 20 year ago? Poor white people are also poor and have also much less chance than rich people. They have the same problems as any other people which are not well off. Why does it sometimes feel that the democrats are not interested in them any longer? It could be that these white poors feel offended and put off if there are told all the time how privileged they are.

Decades of effective and successful propaganda.

[karaddin]

Also when people start trotting out that the left needs to drop the identity politics, it really comes across as saying that the left needs to get on board with the far right with throwing us minorities under the bus. And that bus is going to kill a lot of us if so.

[GrimTuesday]

Biden has taken the lead in Wisconsin by 2k votes, with reason to believe further ballots will favor Biden.

[Wethers]

1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

Biden has taken the lead in Wisconsin by 2k votes, with reason to believe further ballots will favor Biden.

I am afraid to even let myself hope this is true.  Where are you seeing this?

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Maybe I'm going to be hanged in the forum but in my very humble opinion the left has totally fucked-up with the identity politics that it's probably irrelevant for 90% of the population.

I'm completely ignorant on american politics, but these fuck-ups are happening all around the western world and it's because the left or progressives are not reaching out convincingly to the working class.  Why my postman (who is a funny man) vote for the extreme right? Why that taxi driver who is himself an immigrant is antiimmigration? Why that retired nurse in my building or the lady at the kiosk around the corner are so angry? Why people are so angry?

Trump, Bolsonaro and other of their ilk are just channelling that anger, even if they offer no solution.

Really, go out, talk to these people, hear their grievances and stop moral grandstanding 

 

 

 

Trump's bread and butter is identity politics. He tries to turn everything to that at every opportunity.

I agree with the bold (said as much upthread about Dems ignoring rural voters) but you're making something mutually exclusive when it's not. The reason there's not a lot of reach out is the culture divide that needs to be crossed to do it and what I said is part of that.

 

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Wethers said:

I am afraid to even let myself hope this is true.  Where are you seeing this?

It came from Decision Desk and now all the other sites are updating their numbers.

[Wethers]

Just now, GrimTuesday said:

It came from Decision Desk and now all the other sites are updating their numbers.

Thank you Grim - I see it in the AP numbers now.

[GrimTuesday]

According to Nate Silver the lead is up to 30k.

[Wethers]

Need to hold on in NV, AZ, WI and need one of MI or GA (both 16 EVs) for a 270-268 squeaker assuming PA/NC are lost.