Heartofice Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, Bale's Bald Spot said: All of the talk about how it's unclear what taking a knee means is disingenuous at best, given that the commentators explain why the players are doing it every single time. Either the people booing dislike anti-racism stances, or they've gone out of their way to look for a different meaning to that comprehensively explained to them. And why would they do that? What other reason could they have to do that, other than that they don't like the reason given? Being against racism isn't a political stance. Well, it isn't if all of the political parties are against racism. Yeah I think that’s kind of ignorant. Taking the knee is connected to a lot of external symbols and organisations, whether people want to claim it is or not. It has a connection to BLM which has connection to other political stances ( the BLM website did originally have a manifesto on that was plainly Marxist whether people want to admit it or not, which it seem to have since back peddled from). It is also a symbol that is both ineffectual as well as being socially coerced onto people. Again, you don’t get to choose to tell people how they should react to your message. All you have to do is compare it to other symbols that have been used to display support for anti racism stances. Why is this one in particular having such adverse reactions when all the other ones were widely supported? Why dismiss what people are saying and jump on the lazy answer that they must just be racist? Probably because it’s easier and means you can keep everyone firmly in your predetermined boxes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bale's Bald Spot said: All of the talk about how it's unclear what taking a knee means is disingenuous at best, given that the commentators explain why the players are doing it every single time. Indeed. Don't forget the numerous ads before games as well where the players themselves explain. People that make make racist comments or perform actions that are racist just can't stand being called out, both in the real world and on the board. It will be sad if it continues in the rest of the games, but it probably will. The England team probably wish they weren't playing at home, which is a sad state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 At least England have something new to blame when they inevitably crash out in the semis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 The notion that taking the knee is in some way unclear as a gesture or does not communicate the intended meaning well is clearly not true: those booing the gesture do, very clearly, understand what it's about. That's why they are booing it. You don't boo when you're confused. They boo because they have been convinced that paying lip service to the idea that racism is bad basically ended racism and anyone still complaining about it has a sinister agenda. 'Black Lives Matter', as a slogan, is literally the clearest, least controversial possible way of communicating the ongoing problems with racism that persist in our society and yet chunks of the UK media, most of the government and other prominent public figures have spent time and energy building it into a threat instead of a plea. In that atmosphere, it's absurd to blame the players for the reaction of the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soylent Brown Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 11 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Yeah I think that’s kind of ignorant. Taking the knee is connected to a lot of external symbols and organisations, whether people want to claim it is or not. It has a connection to BLM which has connection to other political stances ( the BLM website did originally have a manifesto on that was plainly Marxist whether people want to admit it or not, which it seem to have since back peddled from). It is also a symbol that is both ineffectual as well as being socially coerced onto people. Again, you don’t get to choose to tell people how they should react to your message. All you have to do is compare it to other symbols that have been used to display support for anti racism stances. Why is this one in particular having such adverse reactions when all the other ones were widely supported? Why dismiss what people are saying and jump on the lazy answer that they must just be racist? Probably because it’s easier and means you can keep everyone firmly in your predetermined boxes Help me out here - you've a comprehensive knowledge of anti-racism displays - could you please give examples? Again though, the footballers have explained why they're taking a knee. If racists want to then phone the KKK Hotline and order excuses to boo it, that's not the footballers' fault. The act of taking a knee for these reasons predates BLM by a long, long way. I would suggest that anyone desperately searching for reasons to discredit the act has ulterior motives. It's funny how you're so quick to believe everything the people booing say though, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 I'd really like HoI, or any other anti-BLM boarder, to explain to everyone what, precisely, about BLM is 'Marxist', in a way we should all be afraid of. Other than, of course, a desire for equality amongst all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Spockydog said: I'd really like HoI, or any other anti-BLM boarder, to explain to everyone what, precisely, about BLM is 'Marxist', in a way we should all be afraid of. Other than, of course, a desire for equality amongst all people. If you’d gone onto their website and read their agenda a few months ago you would have seen that what they were actually advocating for was essentially a prettt bog standard socialist list of demands, which didn’t really have a ton to do with racism. 6 minutes ago, Bale's Bald Spot said: Help me out here - you've a comprehensive knowledge of anti-racism displays - could you please give examples? Again though, the footballers have explained why they're taking a knee. If racists want to then phone the KKK Hotline and order excuses to boo it, that's not the footballers' fault. The act of taking a knee for these reasons predates BLM by a long, long way. I would suggest that anyone desperately searching for reasons to discredit the act has ulterior motives. It's funny how you're so quick to believe everything the people booing say though, eh? Well the kick it out campaign has been going for years , wasn’t widely booed. Also for instance Millwall fans were criticised for booing the knee one week, the next week their players stood together displaying an anti racist message and were applauded by Millwall fans. The message matter Also the idea that Black Lives Matter is a message completely disconnected from the political environment it came about in is pretty blinkered. It’s not even the clear message that it thinks it is. The ‘all lives matter’ reaction I agree is tone deaf, but there is a reason that it often gets that reaction, ie that many people feel the hyper focus on race does more to hurt race relations and than it helps. But it’s like ‘defund the police’ , it doesn’t really communicate what the originators think it communicates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 11 minutes ago, Spockydog said: I'd really like HoI, or any other anti-BLM boarder, to explain to everyone what, precisely, about BLM is 'Marxist', in a way we should all be afraid of. Other than, of course, a desire for equality amongst all people. Equality is bad for the status of straight white men. Always has been. It makes complete sense if you stop thinking of other humans as equals but as a threat to your privileges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 It also makes sense if you, a white guy or woman enabling, think that white Christian men are a Chosen godly elite, and deserve your entitlement. They usually like Plato’s Republic, certain churches, certain dictatorships, and maybe Ayn Rand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: If you’d gone onto their website and read their agenda a few months ago you would have seen that what they were actually advocating for was essentially a prettt bog standard socialist list of demands, which didn’t really have a ton to do with racism. Well, I've just been on the global BLM website, and while I can't comment on what was up there 'a few months ago', the stuff up there today is precisely the sort of transformative action our society is in dire need of, and will be so much the better for enacting. So, HoI, please tell everyone what is on their website, today, that you find so objectionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Well the kick it out campaign has been going for years , wasn’t widely booed. I'd make three points there: 1. Kick It Out support players taking the knee and their chief executive has said that fans booing players for this has 'sinister undertones'. 2. Kick It Out extends only as far as football, whereas taking the knee is about wider anti-racism. 3. Kick It Out is an initiative substantially run by the existing authorities that has faced criticism by Joleon Lescott, Rio Ferdinand and Micah Richards, among others, for being ineffectual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, mormont said: I'd make three points there: 1. Kick It Out support players taking the knee and their chief executive has said that fans booing players for this has 'sinister undertones'. 2. Kick It Out extends only as far as football, whereas taking the knee is about wider anti-racism. 3. Kick It Out is an initiative substantially run by the existing authorities that has faced criticism by Joleon Lescott, Rio Ferdinand and Micah Richards, among others, for being ineffectual. Was Kick it out widely booed? Or any of other messages regularly put out decrying racism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 39 minutes ago, john MCG said: At least England have something new to blame when they inevitably crash out in the semis. All that kneeing damaged their knee ligaments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soylent Brown Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Was Kick it out widely booed? Or any of other messages regularly put out decrying racism? Yes, let us judge all anti-racism campaigns on how much racists dislike them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Bale's Bald Spot said: Yes, let us judge all anti-racism campaigns on how much racists dislike them! Judge campaigns by how successful they have been at getting their message across. On that, it’s pretty obvious that ‘taking the knee’ has been an abject failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 https://yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/articles-reports/2020/10/16/do-fans-support-premier-league-players-knee-blm When 41% of those polled don’t agree with the taking the knee gesture then you’d think someone with have a little think about messaging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Judge campaigns by how successful they have been at getting their message across. On that, it’s pretty obvious that ‘taking the knee’ has been an abject failure One of the main messages of the taking the knee campaign is that racism is still pervasive in our societies and something needs to be done about it. The sight of all those racists booing is getting the message across quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 27 minutes ago, mormont said: I'd make three points there: 1. Kick It Out support players taking the knee and their chief executive has said that fans booing players for this has 'sinister undertones'. 2. Kick It Out extends only as far as football, whereas taking the knee is about wider anti-racism. 3. Kick It Out is an initiative substantially run by the existing authorities that has faced criticism by Joleon Lescott, Rio Ferdinand and Micah Richards, among others, for being ineffectual. Genuine question: was there a ‘window’ in which fans could have booed Kick It Out? Did it have a minute silence or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, Heartofice said: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/articles-reports/2020/10/16/do-fans-support-premier-league-players-knee-blm When 41% of those polled don’t agree with the taking the knee gesture then you’d think someone with have a little think about messaging It’s interesting that the poll specifically words the question as ‘do you support taking the knee in support of the BLM movement’, which would seem to run against the idea that it’s not specifically tied to it. I definitely think there should be some daylight between ‘BLM purist’ and ‘massive racist’ which a person might conceivably identify with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soylent Brown Posted June 9, 2021 Share Posted June 9, 2021 That the poll is worded that way doesn't necessarily reflect the intent of the players. It does reflect the intent of the people running the poll, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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