Do you think that The Tyrells are done in TWOW?

[Dreadscythe95]

Do you think that now that fAegon has Storms End, Dorne is plotting from the South and Cersei is with her back on the corner that The Tyrells will fall? Will Catelyn Stark be right after all? Are the Knights of Summer doomed to fail? After I read the books combined with F&B I became a big Tyrell fan over the years fan because I love the opportunistic and charming nature of the House and how carefuly they have climbed the steps of power, slowly grasping power away from The Hightowers (let's be honest before the Dance they were OP), finally managing to consolidate their power in The Reach after The Dance of The Dragons. In the events of ACOK you learn about them and you see them in the peak of their long climb, some steps away from The Iron Throne. Also we just met characters liek Willas and Garlan and they seem so interesting, I want to see them do so much more... 

[Moiraine Sedai]

House Tyrell is one of the least likely of the houses to fall early. Yes they will fall as ALL houses will eventually. Winter is coming and that is bad for those with a pulse.  

The Starks and their ice zombie allies will take the north. All of the houses of the north will fall and become ice wights. These are the armies of ice which Dany and Drogon will melt at the Trident.  

The Tyrells will fall because of famine, grayscale, and the ice wights crossing to the south. The riverlands and everything between the Reach and the north will fall first. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

Well the Rebellion shows that Mace Tyrell knows when to dip his banners and call it a day. It's entirely possible the Tyrells will cut their losses with House Lannister once the wind starts blowing in another direction.

[chrisdaw]

Under Mace they're gone. There's no careful or intelligent climbing, just Mace's naked and clumsy ambition and Olenna's attempts to make his path less treacherous, but that's a full time forever job and she's old and gone home.

Contrary to what everyone takes away from the Tyrells the point of the actual text is isolationist Olenna is intelligent and right but no-one listens to her and she doesn't hold any real direct power.

Quote

 

"A great oaf," said the Queen of Thorns. "His father was an oaf as well. My husband, the late Lord Luthor. Oh, I loved him well enough, don't mistake me. A kind man, and not unskilled in the bedchamber, but an appalling oaf all the same. He managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him.

"And now my oaf son is doing the same, only he's riding a lion instead of a palfrey. It is easy to mount a lion and not so easy to get off, I warned him, but he only chuckles.

 

The text gives it to us straight, it's only a question of exactly what their downfall looks like.

Personally I expect Marge's trial to go horribly, Mace to try and take her from the Faith by force only for KL to turn into a complete bloodbath (in rather straightforward foreshadowing Kevan says this is what could happen and the only thing keeping it from happening is Kevan, and now he's dead) and Aegon to come in and save the city.

Mace dies, Willas throws his lot in with Aegon as Aegon will be backed by the Faith and will return him Marge when he bends the knee to Aegon. Dany's going to defeat Aegon in the dance though so they'll pay again (in dragon's fire probably, field of fire stuff). Foreshadowing makes it a good possibility we see Loras and Garlan (GRRM laid the sweetness of Garlan's family on too thick so I expect they're going to go horribly) on two different KG's or otherwise split up and fighting and killing each other, or both fighting and dying alongside each other.

Maybe Marge outlasts every other viable ruling option and gets given back the Reach at the very end. More likely I think she ends up a Silent Sister.

[EggBlue]

I think they are likely to fall... although not completely. more like what it is like with the starks. some live to pick up the pieces and all. In my opinion what the show did to Highgarden( handing it over to a bronn) was the worst thing possible because something like that is more in a feast for crows theme( like Darry thing) than a dream of spring which indicates hope of justice and prosperity. 

as for Faith, it is not going to be major player . it will be just a force to make cercei more mad and vengeful and show us how small folk can matter. I can see cercei exploding the sept and the Tyrells who are in kingslanding and it will be her downfall ( maybe she run to the Rock) since the whole Reach and kingslanding population would team up with Aegon . Tommen will probably die in the hands of commoners after all they see the king responsible for their casualty( poor boy:((( )  by the way I deeply hope these faith fanatics to leave the story as soon as possible... they just remind me of Taliban , Isis and medieval cruel power-hungry churches 

[Lord Varys]

There are just too many Tyrells for them to actually fall ... just as there are too many Lannisters. Even if Mace and all his children were gone, one of the uncles or cousins would just take over and continue business as usual.

The Tyrells certainly will lose their hold on the Iron Throne in TWoW with Aegon's rise. But they are too powerful and too connected to become insignificant. The entire Ironborn business will occupy them for a while, but once that's over - which it eventually will be since Euron wants the Iron Throne and not the southern Reach - they will be able to regroup and participate in the larger game again.

There is a reason why Willas Tyrell isn't in KL with Margaery and Mace.

[Loose Bolt]

Reach has enough population to outman any 2-3 other "kingdoms" so they could lose thousands men and just replace those with new men if they had to raise new armies. So Tyrells could afford to lose whole armies and still keep playing the game.

Besides Reach is bread basket of Westeros and that is huge ace for Tyrells bc anyone sitting on Iron Throne cannot feed his subjects and stay in power without active support of Tyrells. After all North and Riverlands cannot just now feed even their own populations and parts of Crownlands and Westerlands are in similar situation. So any ruler of Westeros would have to make a deal with Tyrells.

So I assume that house Tyrell should have very good chance of survival.

[Megorova]

I think that after the failure in the First Blackfyre Rebellion, when Bittersteel needed to somehow transport Daemon's supporterts across the Narrow Sea, he made a deal with the head of House Redwyne, and as a payment for using Redwyne fleet, gave up his fiancee - Calla Blackfyre. So instead of marrying with Aegor, Calla had married with Lord Redwyne's son - Runceford Redwyne. So Olenna Tyrell is half-Blackfyre thru her mother, and thus Redwynes and Tyrells and all those Houses with whom they had intermarried in the past 100 years, are secretly supporters of Blackfyres.

Varys is a Blackfyre. So during Robert's Rebellion he conspired with the Tyrells and they on purpose arrived too late to Ashford, and then had spent most part of the Rebellion on totally unnecessary siege of Storm's End. They were intentionally staying there, doing nothing, instead of going to Trident to give aid to Rhaegar, or going to King's Landing to support King Aerys.

In my opinion the Tyrells and Varys were waiting for the opportunity when one of the Rebellion's sides would have fallen, and then they were intending to off the winner of the war. So the Tyrells and across the Narrow Sea the Golden Company were waiting for Varys' command what to do. And if Tywin didn't interveened, then the Blackfyres would have seized Iron Throne shortly after Rhaegar's death. Instead happened what happened, and thus Varys, Tyrells and the Golden Company had to postpone their plans of Conquest.

Varys made a deal with the Tyrells that Margaery (she was born that year, in 283) will marry with fAegon (he's a Blackfyre - his parents are septa Lemore (real name Jeyne Swann) and Barristan Selmy (Barri's mother was a daughter of Aenys Blackfyre)). So all these years Varys and Tyrells were waiting for the opportunity to strike. Though Tyrells got tired of waiting and instead of marriage with fAegon, they decided to get Iron Throne thru Margaery's marriage with Renly.

I think that the Golden Company didn't seized Storm's End by defeating Tyrells, instead Tyrells willingly gave the castle to fAegon, in exchange of him confirming their previous agreement - that he will marry with Margaery.

Thus no, I don't think that the Tyrells are done. Far from it.

[Lord Lannister]

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Under Mace they're gone. There's no careful or intelligent climbing, just Mace's naked and clumsy ambition and Olenna's attempts to make his path less treacherous, but that's a full time forever job and she's old and gone home.

Contrary to what everyone takes away from the Tyrells the point of the actual text is isolationist Olenna is intelligent and right but no-one listens to her and she doesn't hold any real direct power.

The text gives it to us straight, it's only a question of exactly what their downfall looks like.

 

I always thought Mace's bumbling oaf personality was just a means to make people not take him seriously. Whatever else you want to say about Olenna, she's an active advocate of House Tyrell and I don't think she'd actively undermine her House like that unless it was to play up Mace's oafishness so people would underestimate him and the House by proxy while they keep climbing up.

Mace's role in the Rebellion was actually brilliant. He committed House Tyrell to the cause more likely to win on paper in such a way it didn't actually cost him much. He fought a few small battles, then settled in to a long and comfortable siege at Storm's End while every one else was busy fighting and dying. If the Targaryens won he'd have been part of the winning side and entitled to his share of the spoils. As it was, he just dipped his banners and called it a day without actually losing anything. 

In the series, the Tyrells have managed to become a power to be reckoned with. It may end up costing them more than the Rebellion as the Lannisters slide down hill but it's not inconceivable at all they'll switch horses again. (f)Aegon would be a fool to refuse them if they offered to switch sides, even if he shouldn't quite trust them. 

The Tyrells may not have a happy ending, but I think they'll land on their feet even if they end up limping around a bit. They always do.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

They're growing strong so... maybe they end up with Harrenhall?

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think Marge's days are numbered, and so probably are her cousins' Elinor, Megga, and Alla. (Although it would be hilarious if they tried to marry Margaery to Aegon). I think Loras will probably survive his injury, but he will be terribly injured. 

As others have mentioned, there are enough Tyrells out there that the House will survive. However, the power they have so briefly grasped will all but certainly falter with the coming Targaryen civil war. If Tommen and Margaery are both still alive when Aegon reaches King's Landing, then the Tyrells are going to suffer a crushing fall from grace as collateral. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

there is two ways I sort of want the Tyrell arc to unfold. 

first off, I can see them all dying. the immediate reaction of the Tyrell family members to joff being poisoned seemed almost rehearsed to make them seem more innocent. "He's Chocking!" and Garlan being the first to run up to try to "help" him. for that reason I think not just The queen of thorns, but Maergary, Garlan and probably Mace are all probably doomed (if breaking guest right is like a curse type thing).

But I would also love for something else to happen. If the high sparrow declares that Cersei's trial by combat can only be a trial of seven, and she doesn't have the seven kingsguard able to defend her, then she has to do a more traditional trial by faith. Three of the judges will be a crone, a mother, and a maiden. wouldn't it be amazing if those three turned out to be Olenna, Alerie and in revelation that she actually is a maiden, Maergary. then they just have to convict her of kingslaying and not incest, or if incest is proven, use the opportunity of faegon to do away with Lannister kings.

[Willam Stark]

House Tyrell will survive, they have cadet branches, but the main bloodline (Mace's one) will likely die.

The only house(s) who is (are) in the verge of extinction is House Baratheon, and (in my headcanon) House Blackfyre.

[BlackLightning]

The Tyrells as a collective will survive The Winds of Winter. Mace, Margaery and Margaery's cousins will probably all die though but Olenna and Willas will survive.

If fAegon is at all responsible for what tragedy befalls Lord Mace and Queen Margaery (or if the Tyrell bannermen independently betray the Tyrells for fAegon), then the Tyrells are going to support Dany. It's a natural consequence: the Tyrells want their blood on the Iron Throne, Dany is female and the Tyrells have three sons. There's a reason why Loras is still on Dragonstone, why Willas is tucked away at Highgarden and why Garlan is off and about elsewhere.

Even outside of the main branch, the Tyrells -- as has been previously stated -- are too numerous and too well-connected to all die off in The Winds of Winter. Even if there is some mass murder that befalls the family like there was in the TV show....there are still other cousins and uncles who can assume control. And again--Loras, Willas and Garlan are elsewhere for a reason.

Whether or not the Tyrells will survive A Dream of Spring is the true question. Which they won't. They'll all die off at that point.

15 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

The queen of thorns, but Maergary, Garlan and probably Mace are all probably doomed (if breaking guest right is like a curse type thing).

It's not guest right.

It's Margaery's party too just as much as it is Joffrey's.

15 hours ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

If the high sparrow declares that Cersei's trial by combat can only be a trial of seven, and she doesn't have the seven kingsguard able to defend her, then she has to do a more traditional trial by faith. Three of the judges will be a crone, a mother, and a maiden. wouldn't it be amazing if those three turned out to be Olenna, Alerie and in revelation that she actually is a maiden, Maergary. then they just have to convict her of kingslaying and not incest, or if incest is proven, use the opportunity of faegon to do away with Lannister kings.

Honestly, it is much more likely for Cersei to blow up all of the Tyrells, the septons and bystanders at the trial with wildfire than it is for that to happen.

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's not guest right.

It's Margaery's party too just as much as it is Joffrey's.

I don't see the distinction. the red wedding was a Frey affair as much as it was tully/stark. 

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Honestly, it is much more likely for Cersei to blow up all of the Tyrells, the septons and bystanders at the trial with wildfire than it is for that to happen.

Honestly, probably, yeah. would still be an amazing scene though, and not mutually exclusive.

[BlackLightning]

53 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

I don't see the distinction. the red wedding was a Frey affair as much as it was tully/stark. 

 

Joffrey was never offered nor did he ask for guest right. No bread and salt...

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Joffrey was never offered nor did he ask for guest right. No bread and salt...

When a guest, be he commonborn or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are traditional provisions because they are cheap, but are not the only foods that invoke the right. When invoked, neither the guest nor the host can harm the other for the length of the guest's stay.

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?" Jon I Sword

[The Bard of Banefort]

53 minutes ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

When a guest, be he commonborn or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are traditional provisions because they are cheap, but are not the only foods that invoke the right. When invoked, neither the guest nor the host can harm the other for the length of the guest's stay.

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?" Jon I Sword

It’s because Joffrey wasn’t a guest—the wedding was in his house. It just so happens that his house is a castle lol. 

[Targaryeninkingslanding]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s because Joffrey wasn’t a guest—the wedding was in his house. It just so happens that his house is a castle lol. 

 

1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

When a guest, be he commonborn or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are traditional provisions because they are cheap, but are not the only foods that invoke the right. When invoked, neither the guest nor the host can harm the other for the length of the guest's stay.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If fAegon is at all responsible for what tragedy befalls Lord Mace and Queen Margaery (or if the Tyrell bannermen independently betray the Tyrells for fAegon), then the Tyrells are going to support Dany. It's a natural consequence: the Tyrells want their blood on the Iron Throne, Dany is female and the Tyrells have three sons. There's a reason why Loras is still on Dragonstone, why Willas is tucked away at Highgarden and why Garlan is off and about elsewhere.

Aegon doesn't have to have anything directly to do with Mace's or Margaery's death for Willas Tyrell to later support Daenerys or offer his own in marriage to her. That would be a very smart move on his part.

Regardless how Aegon rises to the Iron Throne - the Tyrells won't have the same position at Aegon's court they had at Tommen's, even if the Tyrells declared for Aegon. That means relations between Aegon and the Tyrells will at best be lukewarm, at the worst openly hostile. And in both cases the Tyrells would prefer another pretender to Aegon, especially one they could marry.

If Margaery were to get caught up in Tommen's downfall and suffer, say, a similar fate as Elia and her children, then there is no chance that the Tyrells and Aegon hook up. And such an outcome isn't all that unlikely if there was a Sack-like scenario when Aegon's forces take the city, and Dornishmen were to run amok.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Whether or not the Tyrells will survive A Dream of Spring is the true question. Which they won't. They'll all die off at that point.

There is no chance that that would happen. George has plans for Willas Tyrell, which could mean he might turn out to be a major player in the War for the Dawn. Keep in mind that Highgarden has three weirwood heart trees in its godswood, the Three Singers, more than any other castle south of the Wall. That could become very significant in the later books.

1 hour ago, Targaryeninkingslanding said:

When a guest, be he commonborn or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are traditional provisions because they are cheap, but are not the only foods that invoke the right. When invoked, neither the guest nor the host can harm the other for the length of the guest's stay.

"Your father would have had my head off." The king gave a shrug. "Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree." He gestured at the board between them, the broken bread and chicken bones. "Here you are the guest, and safe from harm at my hands . . . this night, at least. So tell me truly, Jon Snow. Are you a craven who turned your cloak from fear, or is there another reason that brings you to my tent?" Jon I Sword

Yes, Olenna and all her co-conspirators broke guest right, and they might suffer terribly for this transgression. If (or rather once) Cersei figures out what happened there she will do everything in her power to punish them, and if she were to hook up with Euron she could really make them pay.