Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The most bothersome part for me was

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That he was at Ishamael's Darkfriend council. Surely Ishamael would have realized something was off about Fain, but only if the show follows the book in that regard. And in Fal Dara, Fain was completely unhinged in the books, while at the end of season 1 he was calm and measured. I think the show is going to have Fain corrupted by the dagger, seeing as how we didn't see anything of Mordeth.

 

Or...

Spoiler

They're just making Fain/Mordeth more competent/less mad. After all, Mordeth's game is to play Shadow and Light off each other. RJ never quite managed to weave that in, this third alternative to the binary, with the main story very well, but we know from answers from Sanderson that there are hints of a link between the Finns, other dimensional beings, and Mordeth, who also has power that, like that of the Finns, intersects weirdly with the powers of the Dark One and the Creator.

So if they're going to up Fain's role, it makes sense to have him still keep a toe in the Darkfriend world.

However, the way the social blended with the attack on the caravan was weird. The girl crawling under was clearly in a Dreamshard, which we know Ishamael used in the books for the Social.

But she was among the missing from the caravan Perrin and crew find, which Fain destroyed. So was Fain's presence there known to Ishamael? Or did he literally invade the Dreamshard, as he overran the caravan?

We know RJ had played around with Fain being the one who created the time loop that almost captured Rand. It was one of the big debates, back in the day, whether it was Fain or Lanfear/Selene. If I remember right, he eventually resolved it as Lanfear, but by then, Fain had well and truly receded as anything more than a curiousity whose greatest contribution is allowing Rand to figure out how to get rid of the taint.

So if the show is planning to give Fain a bigger role, having him be in the Social makes some sense. 

And like in the books, it looks like Fain is wise to Ishamael's scheme with the Seanchan, and is going to be interfering. Ishamael has his pawn in Suroth, who is a Darkfriend. And from the trailers, it's clear that, like in the books, Turak will get the horn from Fain and overrule Suroth, complicating Ishy's plans.

The broad strokes of the book are surprisingly preserved, in what the villains are doing. It is the main character whose stories are changing to accommodate the time compression, which makes sense, and makes me think they're preserving the broad strokes of the conflict, not every minor battle exactly as in the books.

If that is what they end up achieving, I'll be pleased, despite the atrocious start. 

On the whole, I think the fundamental flaw of this season is the same as season 1: 8 episodes is too tight. Too much connective tissue in the story has to be axed, and it is that connective tissue that lets viewers engage with the world and get drawn in. This is doubly true for book readers, who have to adjust for the changes in the show. That would be easier if there was more time to establish the changes the show is going for. 

Amazon needs to understand that different stories take different amounts of time to tell, and they'll be their own worst enemy here by not recognizing it and giving this show more room to expand.

Edited September 3, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Arakasi]

You can’t give a fourteen book series time to expand. The only way they could do that is to ruthlessly cut everything and just focus on very few characters. (Like not even focus on some of the Emonds five) But that has never been WoT. WoT was always an ensemble series. I do wish this was ten episodes a season instead of eight but the episodes are at least of a good length.

[Poobah]

That is probably my biggest criticism/concern. 8 episodes does seem far too few for what they need to accomplish. If they had 12 or even 10 like they'd have much more room to breathe a bit.

[fionwe1987]

14 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

You can’t give a fourteen book series time to expand.

That's not what I'm saying. Expanding beyond the books is hardly necessary. But whatever part of the books are going to make it to the screen, plus the changes they're making to compact the story, still need room to breathe internally. 

That said, yes the episode lengths being longer is definitely good, and a good alternate way to solve this without necessarily extending episode count. And maybe the very propulsive start of the season will be followed by some more contemplative episodes.

WoT has a lot of bloat. But one thing the bloat does, even if inelegantly, is give weight to a lot of character choices that have globe-spanning consequences, which, especially as the series closes, does offer quite a lot of payoff.

Now they can't and shouldn't copy that bloat over. But smartly condensed bloat can be good character and worldbuilding episodes that help you buy how deeply the magic system of this world bleeds into the lives of characters and shapes them. Take that away and I'm not sure the rest of the plot, however tight, will make for a good story. 

14 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

The only way they could do that is to ruthlessly cut everything and just focus on very few characters. (Like not even focus on some of the Emonds five) But that has never been WoT. WoT was always an ensemble series. I do wish this was ten episodes a season instead of eight but the episodes are at least of a good length.

Agreed. They definitely need to keep in an ensemble, and Judkins even discusses how Rand being the prophesied savior is never meant to mean he's the core focus of the story. WoT repeatedly goes out of its way to see that kind of "only this guy can save us and this requires exclusive focus on him" logic as stupid and unrealistic. Rand draws the most Prophesies because he's pivotal, but his screentime, in long segments of the books, is proportionally tiny, because being the pivot is meaningless on its own if the rest of society isn't poised to do what needs to be done.

Rand himself has to come to this view kicking and screaming, but I'm certainty glad the show didn't go the route of focusing on just him and a few others. That would be an absolute waste of WoT. 

[karaddin]

The One Piece live action series that also just released has the same issue of really needing another couple of episodes in the season (it's great, give it a chance anyway - it just could have been even better). It's a weird tendency to be investing so much into some of these properties but then penny pinching at the last moment to ensure they can't perform optimally - it's not like a 10 episode run is unusual, I feel like the premium tv show model was built around that many.

At least in One Piece's case I think the reduction was due to covid interference and hope it gets 10 for it's next season, Amazon have already had the chance to do that for WoT S2 and not. Hopefully they learn their lesson and do so for s3.

[Corvinus85]

3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Agreed. They definitely need to keep in an ensemble, and Judkins even discusses how Rand being the prophesied savior is never meant to mean he's the core focus of the story. WoT repeatedly goes out of its way to see that kind of "only this guy can save us and this requires exclusive focus on him" logic as stupid and unrealistic. Rand draws the most Prophesies because he's pivotal, but his screentime, in long segments of the books, is proportionally tiny, because being the pivot is meaningless on its own if the rest of society isn't poised to do what needs to be done.

Rand himself has to come to this view kicking and screaming, but I'm certainty glad the show didn't go the route of focusing on just him and a few others. That would be an absolute waste of WoT. 

Well one way to give an ensemble cast equal screen time is to have them together, and their development can be done in parallel, which is what the books do, mainly The Great Hunt. And Moiraine is getting a lot of screen time because Rosamund Pike is the top billed actor, but Moiraine was always just a supporting character. Yes, it's good for supporting characters to shine and make them more rounded people that the audience can care for, but not at the expense of the development of the main characters.

[Werthead]

25 minutes ago, karaddin said:

The One Piece live action series that also just released has the same issue of really needing another couple of episodes in the season (it's great, give it a chance anyway - it just could have been even better). It's a weird tendency to be investing so much into some of these properties but then penny pinching at the last moment to ensure they can't perform optimally - it's not like a 10 episode run is unusual, I feel like the premium tv show model was built around that many.

At least in One Piece's case I think the reduction was due to covid interference and hope it gets 10 for it's next season, Amazon have already had the chance to do that for WoT S2 and not. Hopefully they learn their lesson and do so for s3.

I think it's just the way shows work these days, 8 episodes with x amount of dev, writing and post time means they can put in what they believe is the optimal amount of vfx work to get the quality they want. I think with 10 episodes multiple studios and streamers were feeling the pinch of the workload, with 8 or even 6 it's easier. Also, the lower the episode count it feels the more likely they are to get high-profile actors willing to "slum it" in TVland.

I suspect everyone is looking at Disney, though, which had a major success with 12 episodes for Andor and is now heading for 16 with Daredevil.

I just did a rewatch of Lost and pondered that shorter, tighter seasons may have helped Seasons 2 and 3 with pacing, but it would have destroyed the pacing and character development in Season 1, and the show would have been severely truncated in scope and scale, probably not to its benefit. The 16-episode later seasons felt optimal in terms of pacing, and I think that length would be perfect for WoT.

[Poobah]

Regarding the discussion about the prominence of Liandrin: I had a discussion with another fan and we wondered if perhaps rather than taking Elaida's place she may be taking a role a bit higher up the Black Ajah hierarchy and remain in the tower rather than going full mask-off darkfriend in a few episodes time, perhaps manipulating the wonder girls into leaving of their own accord and walking in to a trap rather than directly taking them and then playing the roles of either one or both of Galina and Alviarin - reporting directly to one of the Forsaken embedded in the tower and gaining a measure of a favour,  manipulating Elaida, sticking Rand in a box, that sorta thing (probably Alviarin's fate rather than Galina's, that was shit and the Shaido should not linger the entire series like the bad smell that they are anyway) - and all around being the anchor/face of the BA for viewers.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Poobah

[IlyaP]

23 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I had a discussion with another fan and we wondered if perhaps rather than taking Elaida's place she may be taking a role a bit higher up the Black Ajah hierarchy and remain in the tower rather than going full mask-off darkfriend in a few episodes time

Well we do know that Elaida will be coming, as Judkins has said someone will be cast for that role. So make of that what you will?

[karaddin]

That does sound like replacing Alviarin might be a pretty good guess which would still pay off her increased influence within the tower that they've already been building up in seasons 1 and 2. I guess Elaida can still be included with reduced prominence given to her pre-existing relationship with Elayne etc.

[SpaceChampion]

The other alternative is she's not B.A. currently but will be turned by a circle of 13+13.  That seems like a thing that needs to be dramatized, and losing someone to the Dark that we've gotten to know would have impact.

[karaddin]

9 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

The other alternative is she's not B.A. currently but will be turned by a circle of 13+13.  That seems like a thing that needs to be dramatized, and losing someone to the Dark that we've gotten to know would have impact.

Do you mean Liandrin or Elaida?

[SpaceChampion]

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Do you mean Liandrin or Elaida?

Liandrin

[karaddin]

Unless it was a pretty major writing goof she's already lied to Mat though, so I think she's locked in as black.

[Slurktan]

27 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Unless it was a pretty major writing goof she's already lied to Mat though, so I think she's locked in as black.

Did she actually lie to mat or just omit info? Mat wasn't mentioned in that part she read out after all

[karaddin]

16 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Did she actually lie to mat or just omit info? Mat wasn't mentioned in that part she read out after all

Just double checked - she reads out the main part of the letter, says "hmm" and checks the back of the letter, then "Now that must be painful. A dozen letters now and not a single mention of Mat Cauthon." 

My interpretation is that sentence is outright not true unless the version of the letter she has received has been previously edited without her knowledge. The closest it can get to not a lie is "A dozen letters now and not a single mention [by me] of Mat Cauthon." but that's just pushing it too far imo. By bringing up the previous letters she's making a claim about everything that has been said - she's making that claim at the global scope if you will and its not true there.

If she was meant to be pulling Aes Sedai shit rather than outright lying they should have phrased it along the lines of "Now that must be painful. All these letters I've read out with no mention of Mat Cauthon."

[Corvinus85]

OK, I watched episode 3 and it is an improvement over the previous two. So I'll keep watching.

They nearly got Nynaeve's Accepted test right, but botched it at the end. And most of it was the episode's highlight. I appreciate that this show, unlike GoT, hasn't shied away from dreams and visions. It would have been a disaster if they did.

Spoiler

I'm less bothered by how she got out on her own after everyone thought she was dead, but by the fact that she actually failed the test - she tried to come out with her daughter after alt Lan died. The arch should have appeared as it did the first time, when the fight was still going on, Lan maybe surrounded by Trollocs and her daughter crying, whatever, and Nyn should have made the conscious choice to go through the arch.

There was a severe lack of Siuan in these episodes. She should have shown up at the Accepted test.

Rand's part going from the Foregate to a high society dinner party because Selene pulled some strings was rushed. Still waiting to see ta'veren effects from him. (I suppose him surviving on his own from the Blight to Cairhien and finding Logain are signs of his ta'veren effects)

Ishamael was very much like Palpatine with Perrin

Spoiler

I shall watch your progress with great interest. lols

The Seanchan are suitably hateful, though they're Texan accents are barely there. They couldn't cast American actors for those roles?

Spoiler

I wish they didn't kill off Uno, but he's only a fan favorite because of his cussing and being a veteran warrior. So I'm ok with that death on account of making the Seanchan more hateful. 

The damane felt a bit too free. Like sure she has that stupid peacemaker, but it felt like the sul'dam wasn't really her master. I thought they may subtly setup that the sul'dam can channel with the sul'dam being the one pointing towards the village women to be taken. 

Mat

Spoiler

Definitely cowardly not going to console Egwene and then saying he felt lost. Sure book Mat is selfish but he does have morals. The show character is not helped by the lack of the internal monologue his book counterpart has.

Also, if there is one thing that might cause fan rage is that we may not be getting the famous Mat vs Galad + Gawyn fight, with him leaving the Tower. Though in fairness, the show's 3 boys don't seem to have the same martial skills as their book counterpart except for Rand's archery skill.

On Liandrin - I don't think that she's combined with any other particular Red or with Alviarin. I think the show just made their own character, drawing from just about every Aes Sedai that is strong willed, with a menacing and dangerous streak. Definitely different from book Liandrin, but at this point I'm intrigued to see where they're going with her.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Corvinus85

[karaddin]

I believe Galad was cast but have we even heard anything about whether Gawyn has been? I'm happy to just pass on his character entirely lol.

14 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

OK, I watched episode 3 and it is an improvement over the previous two. So I'll keep watching.

They nearly got Nynaeve's Accepted test right, but botched it at the end. And most of it was the episode's highlight. I appreciate that this show, unlike GoT, hasn't shied away from dreams and visions. It would have been a disaster if they did.

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I'm less bothered by how she got out on her own after everyone thought she was dead, but by the fact that she actually failed the test - she tried to come out with her daughter after alt Lan died. The arch should have appeared as it did the first time, when the fight was still going on, Lan maybe surrounded by Trollocs and her daughter crying, whatever, and Nyn should have made the conscious choice to go through the arch.

Spoiler

Yeah it took her sacrifice out of the picture - she'd already lost that life by the time she walked away from it. Walking away from the daughter is a different kind of pain but it doesn't work for me as well as her walking away from Lan. I said earlier in the thread, I think the issue is that the fantasy they gave Rand at end of S1 was too heavily borrowing from Nyn's test and think they probably felt they needed to make it less similar to that.

 

[Freshwater Spartan]

Never read the books other than the first 50 pages of the first book. But I got to say I am digging this series. Season 2 episode 3 was about as good as you can hope for in a fantasy television show or any show for that matter. Favorite fantasy show currently.

No clue on how well they are staying true to the books but they have made a compelling show so far.  Their best bet is to use the source material to inspire the best eight episodes possible and not worry about retelling a blow by blow report on a thousand page book (or books?). Distill it and reframe it if necessary. Someone above complained about the time Rosmand Pike was getting. Make her the center. She's excellent. Novels be damned.

The books always had a reputation of being too bloated but at the same time not progressing the story.  The show should strive to be leaner than that.

[Corvinus85]

10 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I believe Galad was cast but have we even heard anything about whether Gawyn has been? I'm happy to just pass on his character entirely lol.

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Yeah it took her sacrifice out of the picture - she'd already lost that life by the time she walked away from it. Walking away from the daughter is a different kind of pain but it doesn't work for me as well as her walking away from Lan. I said earlier in the thread, I think the issue is that the fantasy they gave Rand at end of S1 was too heavily borrowing from Nyn's test and think they probably felt they needed to make it less similar to that.

 

Spoiler

If I recall correctly, her last test involves Lan being the king of Malkier and them having children. So maybe they could have forked a few more dollars for some CGI towers, and have the setting be in Malkier instead of the TR. That way it could have been different enough from Rand's scene in season 1.