[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion

[Ran]

Book spoilers and episode discussion here.

[Ingelheim]

I've been eagerly waiting for Sunday (specially after the leak) to debate this episode with all you guys. Lots of things to discuss. 

I liked the episode a lot.

[slant]

Rhaenyra was 14 when she became the heir? Oof...

Rhaenys gets armoured up before the audience lol. She could have given a more convincing argument for not killing the Greens. 

Finally, in the last episode, they are clearly referring to the factions. I just wish the show would have clearly depicted how it all started in the tournament. 

Jace is every bit the badass I thought he would be. 

Wonder why they are not showing the malformed Targaryen babies. 

So it begins. Solid first season.

[marsyao]

Now why the TV show makes Ser Erryk Cargyll an oathbreaker? when the greens crowned Aegon II, they must have made King's knights to swear an oath of fealty, and Ser Erryk Cargyll  must have taken it, then why would he steal the crown and fled to Dragonstone ? In the original novel Ser Erryk Cargyll and his brothers were Knights honorable to their bone, he should never do such a dreadful things to dishonor to himself

[Ingelheim]

2 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Now why the TV show makes Ser Erryk Cargyll an oathbreaker? when the greens crowned Aegon II, they must have made King's knights to swear an oath of fealty, and Ser Erryk Cargyll  must have taken it, then why would he steal the crown and fled to Dragonstone ? In the original novel Ser Erryk Cargyll and his brothers were Knights honorable to their bone, he should never do such a dreadful things to dishonor to himself

Is this sarcasm? Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk fight each other to the death, one fighting for Rhaenyra and the other for Aegon.

 

[marsyao]

6 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Is this sarcasm? Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk fight each other to the death, one fighting for Rhaenyra and the other for Aegon.

 

No in the book Ser Erryk was happened at Dragonstone and Ser Arryk was happened to at King's landing when the war started, they both swear an oath, one to the black , one to the green, and they stick to their oath to the very end. Hundreds years later, people still sing songs about them. now the TV show made Ser Erryk a turncoat, this is very much wrong

Edited October 24, 2022 by marsyao

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, slant said:

Jace is every bit the badass I thought he would be. 

Wonder why they are not showing the malformed Targaryen babies.

Don't think 'badass' is the way one would describe Jace. Rather wannabe. Good that he doesn't call Daemon (step-)father but his attempt to take charge at the Black Council in Rhaenyra's absence didn't exactly work.

One can see him stepping up in Daemon's absence ... but so far he is more of a disappointment.

I think it was pretty good to not go with the monstrous child. That's always kind of weird, and in the book the source for this story is only Mushroom, anyway.

Also, great choice to not go with Rhaenyra's half-mad declarations of revenge and stuff - the woman doesn't do anything at all throughout the first year of the war in the book, so full-mouthed declarations such as that

Quote

“She was my only daughter, and they killed her. They stole my crown and murdered my daughter, and they shall answer for it.”

seem to be pretty much out of character for her. It seems like a line Mushroom deemed cool (he was the only source actually on Dragonstone at that time).

The toned-down terms she later offers her half-siblings after her coronation sound better.

I also would have preferred it if they had sent Orwyle alone to Dragonstone to deliver the terms - Otto must really be suicidal or stupid to go there, considering what they pulled. Even if they didn't kill him on sight, he would make a great hostage against Alicent and Aegon II.

It could have also been a moment for the Orwyle actor to shine, offering terms, professing his own neutrality, only to then be stripped of his chain by Rhaenyra and being forced to return to KL humiliated.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Now why the TV show makes Ser Erryk Cargyll an oathbreaker? when the greens crowned Aegon II, they must have made King's knights to swear an oath of fealty, and Ser Erryk Cargyll  must have taken it, then why would he steal the crown and fled to Dragonstone ? In the original novel Ser Erryk Cargyll and his brothers were Knights honorable to their bone, he should never do such a dreadful things to dishonor to himself

You seem confused about the timeline there. Erryk steals the crown and flees the castle with Rhaenys in the show before Aegon II is properly anointed and crowned.

He isn't a king at that point, meaning Erryk is no turncloak.

This whole thing is a much better take on the whole thing than the book plot, since they at least try to explain why Erryk and Arryk would turn against each other, personally (although the last episode executed the whole thing rather poorly) whereas literally nothing in the book explains why twin brothers would actually kill each other over this issue. Not in the noble singer's version, nor in the fun Mushroom version.

[marsyao]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

You seem confused about the timeline there. Erryk steals the crown and flees the castle with Rhaenys in the show before Aegon II is properly anointed and crowned.

He isn't a king at that point, meaning Erryk is no turncloak.

 

No, King's knights were the first to take the oath, and that made Erryk a traitor and an oathbreaker

[Ingelheim]

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

I think it gives Aemond depth but also deprives him of agency. He basically starts the DoD by accident.

I like it though, show Aemond didn't seem half as mad as his book version.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Well, with both shows now over, I think I can say with the utmost certainty that Saurondriel > Daemyra. Who'da thunk it?

[Corvinus85]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, with both shows now over, I think I can say with the utmost certainty that Saurondriel > Daemyra. Who'da thunk it?

Math must not be your strong suit. It's <

[marsyao]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This whole thing is a much better take on the whole thing than the book plot, since they at least try to explain why Erryk and Arryk would turn against each other, personally (although the last episode executed the whole thing rather poorly) whereas literally nothing in the book explains why twin brothers would actually kill each other over this issue. Not in the noble singer's version, nor in the fun Mushroom version.

The book gave a very well explanation, the twin brothers took an oath to different masters, and this is a perfect reason why the brothers, despite love each other, fought each other to death, because this was their only choice. In the book, "Fairware my brother" was such a moving scene when the brothers met for last time, knowing next time if they met would be at battlefield

[Tywin et al.]

Thought his eyes got stabbed out. 

[zajaz]

A few things I will say:

Whitewashing is a helluva drug.

Some Black stans are salty as hell because (Show) Greens are not puppy-kicking villains.

DaemonxRhaenyra stans in shambles during the choking scene.

According to some people, you can’t be angry with some of the changes the show has made because F&B was written by unreliable sources.

Edited October 24, 2022 by zajaz

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, marsyao said:

No, King's knights were the first to take the oath, and that made Erryk a traitor and an oathbreaker

We don't see this, and Lord Varys is right. By the time Aegon is crowned king, Erryk is in the wind. So likely not an oathbreaker.

[The Bard of Banefort]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't think 'badass' is the way one would describe Jace. Rather wannabe. Good that he doesn't call Daemon (step-)father but his attempt to take charge at the Black Council in Rhaenyra's absence didn't exactly work.

One can see him stepping up in Daemon's absence ... but so far he is more of a disappointment.

I think it was pretty good to not go with the monstrous child. That's always kind of weird, and in the book the source for this story is only Mushroom, anyway.

Also, great choice to not go with Rhaenyra's half-mad declarations of revenge and stuff - the woman doesn't do anything at all throughout the first year of the war in the book, so full-mouthed declarations such as that

seem to be pretty much out of character for her. It seems like a line Mushroom deemed cool (he was the only source actually on Dragonstone at that time).

The toned-down terms she later offers her half-siblings after her coronation sound better.

I also would have preferred it if they had sent Orwyle alone to Dragonstone to deliver the terms - Otto must really be suicidal or stupid to go there, considering what they pulled. Even if they didn't kill him on sight, he would make a great hostage against Alicent and Aegon II.

It could have also been a moment for the Orwyle actor to shine, offering terms, professing his own neutrality, only to then be stripped of his chain by Rhaenyra and being forced to return to KL humiliated.

Assuming they stick to the books. we will be seeing Jace step up in Daemon's absence. FnB emphasizes his strength in leadership and diplomacy (perhaps something he inherited from Grandpa Lyonel)--neither of which Daemon, a loner and loose canon, is particularly good at. I do wish we got a bit more of Jace standing up to him though. I thought it was telling that Jace refers to him by his name, and not by his title or as "stepfather." He doesn't seem to quite trust Daemon, and it's easy to see why. 

[slant]

Im actually liking the changes in the show. Rhaenyra not being hesitant about sending her kids out, shows more confidence in them. Aemond killing Luce because he lost control of Vhagar. 

[Ingelheim]

2 minutes ago, zajaz said:

A few things I will say:

Whitewashing is a helluva drug.

Some Black stans are salty as hell because (Show) Greens are not puppy-kicking villains.

DaemonxRhaenyra stans in shambles during the choking scene.

According to some people, you can’t be angry with some of the changes the show has made because F&B was written by unreliable sources.

There's been a massive meltdown of DxR fangirls on Instagram and Twitter and Tik Tok since Friday. Like for real. They've been insulting Ryan and Sara Hess the whole weekend.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Ingelheim said:

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

It is a change while not really being a change change, since neither Gyldayn nor any of his sources actually do claim to know what the hell happened in the sky. They know that Arrax was killed and they assume Luke didn't survive the fall despite the fact that no corpse was ever found.

I think one can best compare it to Daemon not deflowering Rhaenyra yet later owning the assumption/belief that he did. Aemond didn't want to kill Luke in the show, but will own the fact that he did.

Because in the end he did kill him. He didn't have to chase Luke, it was his choice.

And I actually like the fact that dragons are shown to be neither horses nor pets. They are not to be trifled with. If you work them up, get them angry, and fuel them with your own hateful emotions ... then they will act. I expect that this won't happen at all that often, but there it actually did make sense.

6 minutes ago, marsyao said:

No, King's knights were the first to take the oath, and that made Erryk a traitor and an oathbreaker

Nope, neither Erryk nor Arryk nor any other KG did swear an oath to Aegon II in episode 9.

By the way - great that they actually show the KG are not robots who just continue to serve every king who is takes the throne. Steffon Darklyn swore vows both to Jaehaerys I and Viserys I and then to Rhaenyra in the show ... and we can expect that every KG also does repeat his vow to the new monarch who takes the crown so that it is clear to them and the monarch that they are now absolutely beholden to the new monarch.

People have been contesting this notions for years and years - good to see that Condal and his writers actually saw reason there.