Andrew Tate - sex trafficker

[mormont]

[mod] Can we stay on-topic here please? The topic was not US politics, we have a thread for that. [/mod]

[Heartofice]

The only thing I find interesting about this Andrew Tate thing is why he is seen as popular at all? 

I suspect this is a signal that some underlying issues are being swept under the carpet by society and not addressed, and when society doesn't seek to address something you end up with only the worst actors being willing to take up the mantle and push the most extreme hardline position, and this is what people are attracted to.

Tate is an extreme vision of masculinity, he is almost a parody of it, a caricature. It's obvious to most people that he is just a sad insecure little man puffing out his chest, like a tiny chihuahua snapping at your heels. But to others who have no contact with masculine role models, they might not be able to distinguish this from real confidence and competence. 

A lot of this is really a signal of something else, it's kind of sad.

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The only thing I find interesting about this Andrew Tate thing is why he is seen as popular at all? 

Because of far right conservatives who’ve  glorified such men.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

when society doesn't seek to address something you end up with only the worst actors being willing to take up the mantle and push the most extreme hardline position, and this is what people are attracted to.

Hey any thoughts on how a lot of the right has been simping for the cyber pimp?

Including—hell especially—those obsessed with traditionalism?

[baxus]

37 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The only thing I find interesting about this Andrew Tate thing is why he is seen as popular at all?

It's not that complicated, really.

He's popular because a lot of people can't come to terms with the fact that "traditional" gender roles are being changed, as well as minorities (ethnic, sexual, whatever) working on getting equal rights. Unfortunately, quite a few men worldwide are mistakenly seeing it as losing "their rights" and toxic assholes like Andrew Tate seem like champions for their "cause".

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

It's not that complicated, really.

He's popular because a lot of people can't come to terms with the fact that "traditional" gender roles are being changed, as well as minorities (ethnic, sexual, whatever) working on getting equal rights. Unfortunately, quite a few men worldwide are mistakenly seeing it as losing "their rights" and toxic assholes like Andrew Tate seem like champions for their "cause".

It should be remembered —misogynists  like Tate have always been popular to at least some extent.

 

[Heartofice]

20 minutes ago, baxus said:

 

He's popular because a lot of people can't come to terms with the fact that "traditional" gender roles are being changed, as well as minorities (ethnic, sexual, whatever) working on getting equal rights. Unfortunately, quite a few men worldwide are mistakenly seeing it as losing "their rights" and toxic assholes like Andrew Tate seem like champions for their "cause".

Yup, I think you have non ironically really captured the attitude of why people are more inclined to go off and follow someone like Tate. Yes there have been changes to gender roles, many of which have been good for women, but at the same time society in general seems to have not noticed the poorer outcomes for men and boys and any sort of hint of complaint is labelled as ' men angry about losing their patriarchal rights' with a sort of 'boo hoo, cry me a river' attitude. 

But in reality men are falling further and further behind in education with no less pressure to earn less or be successful,  are battered over the head with 'toxic masculinity' labels without ever being given a positive alternative to strive for. Men have very few positive male role models, as it becomes more and more fashionable to depict men as either brutish misogynists, sexist creeps or flat out useless jokes. 

It really isn't surprising when society at large and the media do a bad job of looking after young men that they end up going 'nahh fuck it' and go find the angriest most extreme version of masculinity to go follow, because where are the alternatives?

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Men have very few positive male role models,

You know my first instinct would be say that’s a lie, but it’s possible you’ve a rather western conservative idea of what “positive male role model” would even be.

which I may consider on par with Tate in terms of political and social views

 I’m pretty sure you’d take the view of someone like Jorden Peterson as being positive male role model someone who could promote the same ideas of Tate but in a more intellectual veneer.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

42 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

as it becomes more and more fashionable to depict men as either brutish misogynists, sexist creeps or flat out useless jokes. 

Yeah hysterics like this from the culture warrior right is partially why Tate is popular 

Depiction of men being misogynistic or sexist creeps  isn’t new—its just in the past the misogyny and sexism by men were presented as charming or morally neutral rather than more character flaw that needs harsh examination.

See

Or See the 1960s James Bond’s misogynistic comments about women, towards women, and him kissing women without their consent or blackmailing them into sleeping with him being depicted as just suave and cool for it.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[mormont]

The idea that there's a shortage of positive models of masculinity in the Western world just doesn't bear out. Chris Evans, Barack Obama, Keanu Reeves, Daniel Craig, Marcus Rashford, Stormzy, it doesn't take a minute to think of half a dozen names. You could easily put together a list of 50 in an hour. It's not a serious argument.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

The idea that there's a shortage of positive models of masculinity in the Western world just doesn't bear out. Chris Evans, Barack Obama, Keanu Reeves, Daniel Craig, Marcus Rashford, Stormzy, it doesn't take a minute to think of half a dozen names. You could easily put together a list of 50 in an hour. It's not a serious argument.

 

Eh, I do think it’s imperative to decipher what a person actually means by positive male role model based on a person’s own political/social biases the answer can be very different.

I do think what a lot of people think as male models either in media or real life aren’t actually that different on Tate in terms of misogyny 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Week]

3 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hey any thoughts on how a lot of the right has been simping for the cyber pimp?

Including—hell especially—those obsessed with traditionalism?

Yup, big "we're trying to find the guy who did this" hotdog meme energy here.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The idea that there's a shortage of positive models of masculinity in the Western world just doesn't bear out. Chris Evans, Barack Obama, Keanu Reeves, Daniel Craig, Marcus Rashford, Stormzy, it doesn't take a minute to think of half a dozen names. You could easily put together a list of 50 in an hour. It's not a serious argument.

 

I mean it's interesting you pick a footballer and a rapper as examples there, left wing darlings as well which I guess is what makes them positive role models? Isn't one of the problems that boys only have aspirations to become footballers or get into music, rather than engage in education or work in other fields.
I could also mention you include a James Bond actor who appears in a franchise where James Bond is often shown to be a dinosaur and butt of the joke? 

Either way, I'm not saying that there are no male models, but there are far fewer than before, and the trend is going in one direction. Add in issues with fatherlessness and males in education and it's a growing problem.

On the other side of the coin there is a sort of collective effort to push women to achieve more and support them and give them goals and aims. Almost all my female colleagues are part of some collective women's group or go to 'women in business' events to push each other, thats just an example of the general movement to support and help women, which doesn't really have an equivalent for men. 

The response to all this is usually 'meh, men don't need help' or 'yeah well this is just you losing your rights and you can't handle it' which is all nonsense. Tell that to the boys dropping out of school, or committing suicide or joining gangs or getting into crime, stabbing and shooting each other. 

[Which Tyler]

Out of interest - who would your positive male role models from the past be?

What do you look for in someone to call them a positive male role model?

In what field do they need to be famous to classify?

 

All you've done above is say that Mormont's idea of a positive male role model isn't yours.
To have a positive contribution to the discussion, we'd need more than "not that".

Edited January 4, 2023 by Which Tyler

[Week]

3 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Out of interest - who would your positive make role models from the past be?

Rappers and athletes apparently because reasons (can't they model good behavior, respect for one another, creativity, and a drive to be great??). Did we not all watch the World Cup recently? Even just discourse around Mbappe, Morocco, etc. has plenty to aspire to.

The majority of movie stars, director's, famous athletes, politicians, etc. are all men as it always has been.

Truly the trend is towards equality which to some rises all boats and to others makes them upset at losing 'theirs'.

There is a need for community around all people - boys too, absolutely - though that is not going to be a solution coming from the Right or center.

[Varysblackfyre321]

29 minutes ago, Week said:

Yup, big "we're trying to find the guy who did this" hotdog meme energy here.

I’m getting an attempt to frame the regressive rhetoric from other far right demoguges that pray on young men as more as a suitable alternative.

I’m reminded of this cartoon.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[kiko]

Aren't role models usually fathers, brothers or other people from your social circles? Not sure why we need some footballer or actor or if they are to left or woke for you, a rapist pimp like Tate.

But if you need a celebrity, pick Volodymyr Zelenskyy

[Varysblackfyre321]

17 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

To have a positive contribution to the discussion, we'd need more than "not that".

Bitcoin.

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, kiko said:

Aren't role models usually fathers, brothers or other people from your social circles? Not sure why we need some footballer or actor or if they are to left or woke for you, a rapist pimp like Tate.

But if you need a celebrity, pick Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Elliot page utterly destroyed a real lobster man without even saying a word,

[kiko]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Elliot page utterly destroyed a real lobster man without even saying a word,

Context?