Projecting Own Bias on to Characters

[Craving Peaches]

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of projecting their own views on to in-world characters. For example I see multiple people assuming that the whole of Westeros thinks the Freys and Boltons were justified in killing the evil Starks just because they themselves believe it. Another example I see is with religion. People seem to think that most people in Westeros do not care about religion which is just wrong. We need to try and take an objective stance to properly analyse.

[Curled Finger]

There is also a disconnect between values of the time and our own now.  I think sometimes it's very difficult for people to enjoy the story with so many horrible situations and people in it because we are more progressive today.  However, when a reader really can immerse in the time and place it is a richer experience devoid of judgement.  Tall order.  

For the most part readers who understand ASOIAF get all the things you covered in the OP.  Religion is a big deal, guest right is sacred, women and children are chattel.  This is the way it is in this time and place.  You get on board with the Faith of the 7, the Old Gods or one of the many offered up in universe or stay agnostic.  Martin gives you plenty of options.  Freys and Boltons and Lannisters being great is simply inflammatory.  I appreciate the rare essay written with care about legacy but I haven't seen one in years on this forum, so what we have today is simply argumentative discussion.  It's all been said before.  It isn't analysis at all.  

Until we quit answering the silly posts that goad us into arguing the obvious we cannot expect real analysis.  It is fine to argue -- there is lots to argue in this series.  Freys and Boltons are the least of the things that require examination.  It's pretty clear what happened and why.  

[Daeron the Daring]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of projecting their own views on to in-world characters. For example I see multiple people assuming that the whole of Westeros thinks the Freys and Boltons were justified in killing the evil Starks just because they themselves believe it. Another example I see is with religion. People seem to think that most people in Westeros do not care about religion which is just wrong. We need to try and take an objective stance to properly analyse.

Yes, but you're also projecting your own bias right now.

The way this works is simply caused by gaining immunity over the reasonable criticism directed at your (or my) personal favorites, because the deranged craziness justifies (to some) the glorification of the obvious heroes to any level, discarding their flaws, which ultimately is what makes them good characters and good persons.

I personally never made a serious reply to someone demonizing any character, that in reality, didn't deserve it. I'm much more bothered by the glossing people give to given characters, which ultimately leads to the same pattern of behaviour, except it's required a little more brain. People behave too much like football fans (says me) when critical thinking is required instead, but that's a general problem of our society, so if you feel like there's no space for self-improvement, just clown on folks.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Daeron the Daring said:

Yes, but you're also projecting your own bias right now.

How so? I admit I can be biased when discussing characters but this is just some of my observations of the forum. What seems biased to you?

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

People behave too much like football fans

Yes. Certain characters seem to be treated by some as 'rivals' so you can only support one or the other rather than appreciating everyone.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How so? I admit I can be biased when discussing characters but this is just some of my observations of the forum. What seems biased to you?

Wasn't gonna point it out (I may not even be right), but you only approached the whole situation from the Stark hater viewpoint, which seems to me has reasons. Not that it's unusual, I may as well do the same, you tell me.

I only halfway know what you think or may think about certain topics, but it seems to me that you fall in line with people who rarely question if they're in the wrong or open up to other possibilities. Not (at all) the "let me write down the same shit and ignore everything else" kind of way, but the "let's show this guy how it is" kind of way. The deranged people make you (and me too) build up defensive mechanisms that easily overextend to places they shouldn't.

You may have biases towards me because of my username. In reality, I choose this because I felt too much shade thrown at the Targaryen 'faction' (I feel really cringe writing this), but also because I haven't seen too many reasonable voices on that side, at the time. I do like Targaryens in general because of the exotic concept (incest was an exotic concept to me back when I started out with Game of Thrones, ok?), but I rarely like specific Targaryens. You wouldn't tell it by my name, and I would certainly connect dots regarding your profile pic too.

But I can't ask you to appreciate the things I do. What I can ask is not to see me as a natural enemy just because I do like Daenerys, or rather Targaryens in general. (I like Daenerys because of her hero status, tho)

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Wasn't gonna point it out (I may not even be right), but you only approached the whole situation from the Stark hater viewpoint

I was going to add something about Stannis as well but I though that would detract from the point by starting a Stannis v Renly argument. I also mentioned religion as well. The Stark hate was my primary focus because it has been especially prominent recently.

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I only halfway know what you think or may think about certain topics, but it seems to me that you fall in line with people who rarely question if they're in the wrong or open up to other possibilities.

Yes, I am often not open to possibilities regarding the alternative parentage theories and so on. I just find it hard because I can't get it to logically work with regards to the timeline and what we are told. Some people are fine to take nothing at face value but I am not one of those people. I would feel lost...

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The deranged people make you (and me too) build up defensive mechanisms that easily overextend to places they shouldn't.

Yes, I think you are right.

12 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

You may have biases towards me because of my username. In reality, I choose this because I felt too much shade thrown at the Targaryen 'faction' (I feel really cringe writing this), but also because I haven't seen too many reasonable voices on that side, at the time. I do like Targaryens in general because of the exotic concept (incest was an exotic concept to me back when I started out with Game of Thrones, ok?), but I rarely like specific Targaryens. You wouldn't tell it by my name, and I would certainly connect dots regarding your profile pic too.

But I can't ask you to appreciate the things I do. What I can ask is not to see me as a natural enemy just because I do like Daenerys, or rather Targaryens in general. (I like Daenerys because of her hero status, tho)

I don't see you as a natural enemy at all! I think you are a very reasonable person. I don't even dislike Daenerys, I am just apathetic towards her, and I would never consciously 'dislike' someone just because they liked a character I didn't. Otherwise it would be hard to have a discussion with anyone.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[James Steller]

13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I was going to add something about Stannis as well but I though that would detract from the point by starting a Stannis v Renly argument.

HOW DARE YOU SLANDER THE BEST OF THE FIVE KINGS!!!

 

 

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/s

Edited May 8, 2023 by James Steller

[Ran]

Just now, James Steller said:

HOW DARE YOU SLANDER THE BEST OF THE FIVE KINGS!!!

Did someone insult Renly again? Humbug.

[LongRider]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Did someone insult Renly again? Humbug.

I think it was Stannis.   

[The Bard of Banefort]

10 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of projecting their own views on to in-world characters. For example I see multiple people assuming that the whole of Westeros thinks the Freys and Boltons were justified in killing the evil Starks just because they themselves believe it. Another example I see is with religion. People seem to think that most people in Westeros do not care about religion which is just wrong. We need to try and take an objective stance to properly analyse.

I think George underplayed religion more than he probably should have, at least in the first three books. 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, James Steller said:

HOW DARE YOU SLANDER THE BEST OF THE FIVE KINGS!!!

I would offer a peach as an apology, but I ate it. 

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I think it was Stannis.   

That can't be right.

[LongRider]

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

That can't be right.

Bias!

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I think it was Stannis.   

It was that scoundrel, Craving Nectarines.

[SeanF]

Sometimes, people give the impression that a character has wronged them personally.

[JonSnow4President]

20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sometimes, people give the impression that a character has wronged them personally.

They've all wronged us personally.  They got us invested in this story, which isn't being finished.

Edited May 8, 2023 by JonSnow4President
typo

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

They've all wrong us personally.  They got us invested in this story, which isn't being finished.

Which as we know, is all Jon Snow’s fault and he deserved to be attacked by Marsh and friends.      

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, LongRider said:

Which as we know, is all Jon Snow’s fault and he deserved to be attacked by Marsh and friends.      

What we didn't know, was that Bowen Marsh could actually see beyond the Wall. The Fourth Wall.

[Hugorfonics]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of projecting their own views on to in-world characters

I don't think that's really a trap, just a way to enjoy the books more I think. Like for example as a kid, I climbed everything. So Bran says he just can't fall, I swear he stole that line from me (I fell mad times lol, but never pushed) and when I got older I tbh didn't have the best childhood and kinda see myself as Theon or Jon (like, very blurry) but no matter what I was smiling, like Theon (not Jon) So in this case, I kinda feel like even if it's not in black and white I can sorta summarize what they think, you know projecting. Obviously if something is written that goes against my projections then my projection changes. But in between I'm just filling in the blanks for myself.

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

For example I see multiple people assuming that the whole of Westeros thinks the Freys and Boltons were justified in killing the evil Starks just because they themselves believe it.

I love the shit talking they have in asoiaf, it's like a roast. Yea, I mean RheagarF talking about the warg that killed Wymans kid is as ludicrous as the Volantis talking about Dany bathing in blood. But then like Stannis schooling Jon that Robb shoulda stayed in his room and not conquer the riiverlands is such a wtf moment but, kinda steeped in reality. At the end of the day, it's all perspective. (Well, RhaegarF aside)

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Another example I see is with religion. People seem to think that most people in Westeros do not care about religion which is just wrong

I wonder who this is directed at .

Yea this isn't perspective, it's just right. Or you know the degree, I guess is the perspective. But it's near the bottom, Westerosi are surprisingly super tolerant which is why they swear everything by their gods and their neighbors gods. It's weird but it's Westeros.

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

We need to try and take an objective stance to properly analyse

But everyone thinks different and differently about whatever. For instance some claim Robert didn't go hard enough against Balon while others say Dany went too hard against the slavers. It's two completely different ballgames 

 

 

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sometimes, people give the impression that a character has wronged them personally.

Lol that's true, but others give the impression that they were there at their christening

Edited May 8, 2023 by Hugorfonics

[Craving Peaches]

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wonder who this is directed at .

Not you in particular, I have seen many 'underrate' the issue of religion in Westeros because to be fair it wasn't particularly important (from a political standpoint) to most of the characters in the first few books and then it shot up in importance.

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think that's really a trap, just a way to enjoy the books more I think.

I get what you mean but that kind of makes it hard to have a discussion when people are discussing from different in-world subjective viewpoints rather than an (as far as possible) objective one or from the perspective of the reader. At least I find it hard to keep track. Also I can't tell when people are joking