[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[SpaceChampion]

Continued

 

[Corvinus85]

51 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

There is the statues in season one. There was the thing this year where they needed 8 sisters to do X where that number also used to be thirteen. I think they’ve changed the magic number 13 to 8 for tv scale and scope.

I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the wheel-shaped seal under which both Ishy and Lanfear were locked has 8 spokes around the AS symbol. So that possibly means that there are 8 Forsaken in total, or that 8 is the magic number to do something significant, or both.

6 hours ago, David Selig said:

That's something that shouldn't be given to anyone IMO because the Shaido after Dumai's Wells are a complete waste of pages and the reason for the most boring plotline in the series.

IMO the idea of it was neat, to spread some chaos that way. So the show can still do it and then wrap it up in like a couple of episodes. Or it could be done with another group, not necessarily the Shaido.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

There is the statues in season one. There was the thing this year where they needed 8 sisters to do X where that number also used to be thirteen. I think they’ve changed the magic number 13 to 8 for tv scale and scope.

 

19 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't know if this was mentioned already, but the wheel-shaped seal under which both Ishy and Lanfear were locked has 8 spokes around the AS symbol. So that possibly means that there are 8 Forsaken in total, or that 8 is the magic number to do something significant, or both.

Lol I managed to miss those were both 8. Yeah that sounds solid then and a change I think is necessary for a television audience.

That also puts the circle in the season 1 finale much closer to the max number - 5/8 compared to 5/13 has them much closer to the max boost they can get from circles which might help some power scaling concerns.

[fionwe1987]

8 is interesting. 7 is a major number for the Light, 7 Ages, 7 Ajahs, and we know from the Portal stones those 7 Ajah colors had some significance in the First Age, too.

There were, however, 8 Ajahs, and the idea of that secret 8th being a corruption, and that number having significance.. that's appropriate to how Jordan tried to layer in this stuff, even if 8 has no real-world associations at the scale 13 does. But that's immaterial to me, in this case.

One thing with the Lanfear scene: it wasn't clear to me if they were going for this, but a good explanation could be that the cabin was a Dreamshard, that Lanfear seamlessly blended into the real mountains so Rand didn't notice he was not in this world. 

Now, this would mean Lanfear didn't actually get injured, because unlike Tel'aran'rhiod, what happens in a Dreamshard isn't "real" unless the Dreamer wishes it to be. 

This still leaves the question of how Moiraine stumbled in, and really, wether in the real world or not, the idea of Lanfear not setting up wards before sex is just plain dumb, but at least this way, this is not a "real" fight. 

They've already mentioned that injuries in the World of Dreams are real, so they'd have to actually explain Dreaming and Dreamshards, but hey, Aviendha comes in next episode, and she's gonna have to explain why the fuck the Aiel are near the ocean, and in the books, it's a Dream. Good time to introduce Dreamwalking as a Talent, and it's about time Egwene started Dreaming. That's a big miss so far, from this season. 

[Corvinus85]

37 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

They've already mentioned that injuries in the World of Dreams are real, so they'd have to actually explain Dreaming and Dreamshards, but hey, Aviendha comes in next episode, and she's gonna have to explain why the fuck the Aiel are near the ocean, and in the books, it's a Dream. Good time to introduce Dreamwalking as a Talent, and it's about time Egwene started Dreaming. That's a big miss so far, from this season. 

To be fair, how did the chase to catch Fain last this long? All the way from Shienar to Toman's Head. Because they didn't use the Ways (Fain) or Portal Stones (the hunters). In the book it was more sensible to go from Shienar directly south to Cairhien and then time skip to Falme.

It would be ridiculous for powerless Moiraine to get into a Dreamshard. Unless they're changing the Dreamshard into being something like the mirror dimension from Dr. Strange. Linked with both Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world at the same time. I thought Ishy had Min in a Dreamshard in that scene in Tar Valon.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Werthead]

In the books, Perrin meets Gaul in Remen in northern Altara, which is a fair bit more than halfway across the continent from the Aiel Waste anyway. All they need to do is just say they started hunting for the Car'a'carn earlier and had more time to spread out across the continent.

[Poobah]

5 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

One thing with the Lanfear scene: it wasn't clear to me if they were going for this, but a good explanation could be that the cabin was a Dreamshard, that Lanfear seamlessly blended into the real mountains so Rand didn't notice he was not in this world. 

Personally I think this is a reach, I don't think there was anything to suggest that this was a dream - look at how the scene between Ishamael and Min was shot in comparison which was clearly some sort of dream. Dreamshards have never had a connection to the real world unless someone makes a portal to then - they're like a personal dream crafted by a powerful channeller/dreamer (it was never clear if you needed to be both or just one and have the necessary knowledge, in retrospect it does seem logical that Ishamael was probably something of a dreamwalker) out of the essence of Tel'aran'rhiod.

I also don't think it's implausible that Lanfear wouldn't have bothered setting up wards around the cabin. For starters the concept of wards hasn't even been introduced in the show. Also she's with Rand 100% of the time and he can sense when she channels, she's trying to stay on the down low, and she's literally the most powerful female channeller in the world, she has access to the true power, is functionally immortal, the only person who might be considered a threat is Ishamael but they're on the same side today, and everyone else is a foolish child and no threat to her as far as she's concerned. The Forsaken's enormous arrogance and sense of superiority over everyone and everything in the third age is consistently shown to be one of their biggest weaknesses throughout the books.

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

8 is interesting. 7 is a major number for the Light, 7 Ages, 7 Ajahs, and we know from the Portal stones those 7 Ajah colors had some significance in the First Age, too.

There were, however, 8 Ajahs, and the idea of that secret 8th being a corruption, and that number having significance.. that's appropriate to how Jordan tried to layer in this stuff, even if 8 has no real-world associations at the scale 13 does. But that's immaterial to me, in this case.

I like this stuff about 8s, especially the secret eighth Ajah. I hadn't picked up on most of them either. As to real world significance isn't 8 a lucky number in China? 

[karaddin]

Actually they did set up wards - Kerene had them set around the camp with Logain. The explanation was minimal and I think assumed familiarity with the basic concept and just gave the vibe of an alarm, but it did seem like setting them up was more involved than the impression I have from the book. I guess that could just be the need to traverse the perimeter as you set them up so putting them around a hut would be easier.

I think the "didn't want to risk Rand noticing" combined with arrogance is plenty of explanation though.

I agree it's definitely time to bring in dreaming, they certainly put a lot of weight on dreams having significance in the first season so I think the groundwork is there for that.

[Poobah]

Ah yeah I got a bit lost in my post but did mean to agree too that it's about time for Dreaming to come in for sure. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Poobah

[Gertrude]

I don't think there's room for it in this season for Egwene, but Perrin has plenty of time to explore that and introduce it to us properly. Perhaps some part of Egwene's ordeal will trigger her dreaming ability and she will talk to someone about it later. I have to admit, I am not seeing how we get enough of the Tower stuff in to put pieces in place for the girls to spread out later. I trust they have a plan, but they will be in Falme for the rest of the season, and we are presuming that next season will be mainly book 4, right? They have an interesting puzzle to figure out how to get Egwene some knowledge about her dreams and get her hooked up with Rand to go where she needs to be. Watch and Find Out I guess :p

Edited September 10, 2023 by Gertrude

[Scott_N]

Having caught up with all four episodes over a long flight, I think it is a bit of an improvement on season 1 so far. Damning it with faint praise, I know, but as a non-book reader, I found the first season was poor though not offensively so (as opposed to ROP) possibly thanks to not being able to take umbrage at major plot or character changes.

It's not great, mind. The interesting characters are Moiraine, Liandrin and Ishmael. Lanfear and Logain are also pretty decent so far. These are all played by competent actors which brings me to one of the larger problems for me: The people from the Two Rivers. Who, you know, are not exactly compelling.

Perrin is absolutely awful, genuinely painful to watch. Egwene and Nynaeve are bland and dull (I hold out some hope for Nynaeve but that's more on the basis of season one). Rand I still don't know what to make of. Too early to judge Mat, perhaps, but when he is in scenes with Liandrin or Min he is the lesser presence.

Another large problem is the kumbaya male models that are supposed to be Warders. Just not credible. At all. The Aes Sedai are generally doing better and might be a saving grace going forward if done properly.

I'm not a fan of characters being killed and then coming back to life. Such cop-out story telling and just takes away any jeopardy.

Another thing that bothers me a wee bit is that the powers the Aes Sedai have (and I suppose Rand/Forsaken) are too much. Way beyond superhero territory. How is this dealt with in the books? When a few people wield complete annihilation in their hands, the wider societal power dynamics are just off.

PS. Lindsay Duncan. I could have included her in my second paragraph but I assume (?) she is not an on-going player. But this is what a proper actor brings to a role.

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Scott_N said:

Another thing that bothers me a wee bit is that the powers the Aes Sedai have (and I suppose Rand/Forsaken) are too much. Way beyond superhero territory. How is this dealt with in the books? When a few people wield complete annihilation in their hands, the wider societal power dynamics are just off.

Over time, the Aes Sedai have become weaker than their counterparts from the previous Age. Both in the sense that they cannot wield as much of the One Power as older generations, and in the sense that they lost knowledge, important weaves and such. On top of that, they are held by the Three Oaths as mentioned in season 1. Men who can channel are of course hunted down and either killed or cut from the OP. The Aes Sedai rule themselves and no other nation, though they play politics more than anyone else.

Now, of course, with the return of the Forsaken and characters like Rand and Nynaeve in the mix, the world is more dangerous for the common person. But that's part of the story. The Last Battle is coming, between the Dark One and the forces of the Light.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Maia]

Finally watched the first 4 episodes, like them quite a bit and am on board with the changes for the most part.

Except for this weird character assassination of Moiraine and Lan. Her pushing him away is just so incredibly dumb, even more so since she is now powerless and needs protection more than in the books. Yes, she wants him to be happy, but the fate of the world is at stake for Pete's sake, she would never prioritise like that! Ditto her behavior re: her sister. She is supposed to be good at manipulating people! And Lan meekly accepting it when he could not be compelled by magic in this situation? Oh, well.

Merging Verin with Vandene was an interesting decision, I wonder how they'll make it compatible with her arc?

I prefer the Forsaken being impossible to kill by mundane means vs recycling.

I love the humanisation of Liandrin and appreciate a more detailed look at what it means to be a channeler with normal family members.

I am hopeful for the rest of the season.

[SpaceChampion]

Shohreh Aghdashloo cast as Elaida Sedai

 

I'm still hoping they cut Cadsuane out totally.

Note the video includes some plot leaks for season 3, specifically:
 

Spoiler

The tower coup.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Arakasi]

I doubt they will they’ve mentioned her multiple times on the show already. But yeah that’s a great Elaida.

[Corvinus85]

6 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Shohreh Aghdashloo cast as Elaida Sedai

 

I don't think I've seen her in an antagonistic role before, so this will be interesting. 

[Poobah]

Taking it with a grain of salt as I rather had her as Cadsuane but I certainly want her in the show and would be interested to see what she does with Elaida too.

[Myrddin]

24 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't think I've seen her in an antagonistic role before, so this will be interesting. 

She could be pretty antagonistic in Expanse.

Love this casting.

[Maltaran]

I was going to say I didn’t think she was old enough to play Cadsuane, but it turns out she’s 71. But she will likely be very good whoever she’s playing.

[Slurktan]

15 hours ago, Scott_N said:

Another thing that bothers me a wee bit is that the powers the Aes Sedai have (and I suppose Rand/Forsaken) are too much. Way beyond superhero territory. How is this dealt with in the books? When a few people wield complete annihilation in their hands, the wider societal power dynamics are just off.

 

To extrapolate on Corvanus...  basically Aes Sedai cannot fight in regular wars between countries because they are not allowed to use the power as a weapon except against the shadow.  Once later on in the series when there are channelers on both sides of a conflict generally it tends to have the channelers stay out of the regular fighting and just take on their enemy counterparts, because while they can do super feats and such and kill regular armies; if they get tired, they are easy to kill by other channelers. (Which happens, disastrously so multiple times)