[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[SpaceChampion]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Why aren't they going to Tear next season? Has this been confirmed

 

Third season is wholly book 4.  This season already combined books 2 and 3, and Rand doesn't need Callandor yet.  That might happen in season 4 after he has the Aiel with him.  But they clearly only have budget for one or two new cities per season and that's definitely Caemlyn and Rhuidean.

There's nothing about the plot in any of these books that has to happen the same way.  The wondergirls don't need to pursue the Black Ajah to Tear, they can go anywhere for that, or they don't actually to pursue the BA at all yet.  It would make more sense some senior Aes Sedai pursue the BA, and fail repeatedly against them, before the wondergirls get into that.

[fionwe1987]

4 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Third season is wholly book 4.  This season already combined books 2 and 3, and Rand doesn't need Callandor yet.  That might happen in season 4 after he has the Aiel with him.  But they clearly only have budget for one or two new cities per season and that's definitely Caemlyn and Rhuidean.

Hmmm I've seen no confirmation of this. Is this from the show people, or speculation? They've already introduced Tear. And they said parts of book 3 will be here, but not all. I really don't see how you don't have Egwene be Accepted. 

4 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

There's nothing about the plot in any of these books that has to happen the same way.  The wondergirls don't need to pursue the Black Ajah to Tear, they can go anywhere for that, or they don't actually to pursue the BA at all yet.  It would make more sense some senior Aes Sedai pursue the BA, and fail repeatedly against them, before the wondergirls get into that.

Sure, but that assumes Siuan has a bunch of reliable sisters to hunt for the Black, whereas her number 3 is a Black sister. 

What do you suggest they do with them instead, if they're not getting to be Accepted, or hunting the Black?

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Third season is wholly book 4.  This season already combined books 2 and 3, and Rand doesn't need Callandor yet.  That might happen in season 4 after he has the Aiel with him.  But they clearly only have budget for one or two new cities per season and that's definitely Caemlyn and Rhuidean.

There's nothing about the plot in any of these books that has to happen the same way.  The wondergirls don't need to pursue the Black Ajah to Tear, they can go anywhere for that, or they don't actually to pursue the BA at all yet.  It would make more sense some senior Aes Sedai pursue the BA, and fail repeatedly against them, before the wondergirls get into that.

But in book 4 Nyn and Elayne go to Tanchico so that's another city. I don't think Rhuidean would count as a city in the state we find it in book 4. A lot like Shadar Logoth really. 

And the sets for Tear can be focused only on the Stone, which would also make it different from Tar Valon, Cairhien, Falme, and everything else we've seen. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Yeah I saw that. I was questioning why it was so dark and generally how.. off? it felt. It was like someone turned the brightness on my screen down to 0 for that scene. It didn't feel like it was night... was it supposed to be? In general something just felt very off about it, my best guess is maybe they decided they needed an establishing shot for Perrin and co arriving at Falme and quickly threw that together on a soundstage somewhere or something.

It was shot day for night (they filmed during the day and slotted in a filter to make it look like night).

I frequently see people asking why it's impossible to see anything in TV shows at night and contrasting with, say, Helm's Deep in The Two Towers, and this is the usual explanation. Because they're using filters to turn day into night, you can't light them the same way as if it's really night and you can then have lights and reflections making things look natural. It's way cheaper to do it with filters.

Although, amusingly you had GoT which was fully capable of doing night shoots but towards the end you couldn't see anything anyway. And LotR did have some similar filter scenes as well when the lighting wasn't great (such as Pippin finding Merry after the Pelennor; in fact, IIRC the original theatrical edit was even shown during daylight but for the Extended Edition they put in the filter).

[Arakasi]

I don’t think the Lan stuff was contrived other than what is he reading books. But it does set up with what we saw in season one. If Moiraine was stilled Lan would feel despair and that he didn’t was a clue.

I do agree them allying with Lanfear or at least leaving with her is an interesting choice. It is something they did with Asmodean but never with a full power forsaken.

[fionwe1987]

If there's a city they can dump, it is Tanchico. Combining it will Altara makes a lot of sense. 

They did enough of Lugard in Book 1, which they didn't have to do at all, that I'd be surprised if they don't do the Stone purely for budget reasons. As others said, the interior of the Stone is where most of the story is.

And the story in Tear isn't just about Callandor. It's where Rand meets Elayne, Egwene and Rand break up, Rand decides to interfere in Cairhein, meets the Aiel, etc.

I don't think they can do all that in Falme very easily, even if everyone sticks around there for a while at the beginning of the next season. It's too soon for some of this. 

[SpaceChampion]

Judkins has spoken about it a number of times, including:

https://x.com/rafejudkins/status/1550293845090308098?s=20

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We are trying to get a fair amount of what’s done in Books 1-3 (large parts still being held for later) by the end of S2 so that S3 can be a much closer adaptation of TSR

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Maltaran]

They haven’t done anything in the show to set up Tear and Callandor, whereas in the books, the fall of the Stone was the most well known of the Prophecies and the biggest indicator to the general population that Rand was the real Dragon Reborn. The show seems to be making Falme and “bannered across the sky in fire” that marker instead.

As far as adapting TSR for S3 goes, they’d better get the Aiel history sequence right. 

[Arakasi]

Although I suppose Lanfear in the books didn’t actually oppose the good guys til she found out about Aviendha and Rand. Til then she had been trying to get Rand over by doing things like giving him a tutor and such.

[fionwe1987]

12 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Judkins has spoken about it a number of times, including:

https://x.com/rafejudkins/status/1550293845090308098?s=20

 

That doesn't preclude Tear. The first 10 chapters of TSR are in Tear, remember. There's a lot of setup there for why Rand decides he needs a Forsaken to teach him. It sets up the Choedan Kal, because they're only truly terrifying in relation to Callandor.

A lot of tDR is actually here. Rand alone, getting crazed dreams about his friends dead. Perrin dealing with being a Wolfbrother, Mat escaping Tar Valon...

A quick pitstop in the Tower before heading to Tear for Egwene and co, while Rand probably has some kind of crisis that has him run off to Tear, Moiraine, Perrin and Lan following. 

It's not hard to imagine they land in Tear by mid season 3, kinda like how everything converges in Cairhein, and then head to the Waste/Two Rivers, only they can take time to setup the Waste in the early season. The Tower coup can come after the politics setup early, with Elayne leaving the Tower being the event that sets Elaida on the path to seeking Siuan's ouster. They could even have Rand meet Morgase and Elaida on the way to Tear, if they want to loop that arc in. The Tower coup will suitably up the stakes for Rhuidean and Edmond's Field.

I dunno if we'll also see Elayne and Nynaeve branch off, though. If they do, I suspect we'll just go straight to Altara and the Bowl of the Winds, and Salidar can be much closer to Ebou Dar, which can be the Seanchan's next target, instead of Tanchico. Two hunts in two different cities for two different ter'angreal by the same characters seems wasteful. I'd rather they go hunt for the male a'dam, and fortuitously find the Bowl also, which can let this story stretch into season 4. 

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

If you watch with subtitles it tells you what Aviendha signals to the other Maidens: they're shocked by the amount of water, as they can see the ocean.

I was wondering if people got those without subtitles on, pretty hilarious if not. A win for watching with subtitles on!

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Another detail from this episode I liked - traveling is pretty much confirmed now (which I had assumed would be the case) with how Lanfear popped Mat across to Falme and was back in time to have her stroll, but she didn't tip her hand (and risk Moraine catching the weave) by offering that. She just continues with their plan to go via the ways and opens that gate even though she hates slow travel. So often we see dumb mistakes from villains in stories so it's worth recognizing when they're doing the opposite.

Yes, competent villains are nice, especially if they give them plausible reasons not to just wipe the floor with the protagonists (which is presently the case for both Ishy and Lanfear - both want something from Rand and to a lesser extent from his allies/friends).

Lanfear must indeed have used some form of travel (potentially through the dreamworld - in any case, she can transport Mat in addition to herself) and is smart enough to hide this ability from the channelers of this age, starting her attack from the expected position (the Foregate) and taking the "mundane" waygate to escape with Rand.

Come to think of it, would a Fade be capable of taking someone with him when it does its shifting in the shadows thing?

7 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

In the moment I was hoping Rand would shield Lanfear, having learned it from Ishy's weave, and leave her tied off for Siuan to take back to the White Tower for trial and execution (before the Black Ajah break her free, of course, but they'd need a male Forsaken or Taim to unshield her).

That would hardly have been possible, as even Rand at full strength would have serious trouble with a channeler of her strength and skill (she was a scholar in the One Power in the age of legends). And she is one of his more useful allies, even if she is also a loose cannon and very volatile in general. In the books, Rand allies with her, too.

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

For sure.  They're not going to Tear next season.

Ingtar is probably the one to fight Turak, and sheathe the sword to get the win.

Yes, looks like it. And I don't mind Ingtar doing so (he hasn't had much to do, unlike his role in the book) but I wonder if they are even going to be doing his redemption arc (were it not that he had a suspicious talk with Perrin about motivations of darkfriends, I would wonder if he was still a DF at all in the show) this season. If they do it out of nowhere in ep 8, it will probably not have near the impact it had in the books (one of the best moments of the entire series; the ability to redeem DF's is a key one for the dragon and his allies).

5 hours ago, David Selig said:

This episode was really impressive visually, the show has made massive strides in this area since last season. Lanfear blowing everything up was a spectacular sequence. But the writing had so many issues. Moiraine and Lan defying the Amyrlin to join Lanfear had me facepalming. Siuan's plan for Rand was pretty flawed, but when the other option was literally doing exactly what ishamael and Lanfear wanted of him at this point, Moiraine and Lan going along with it made no sense to me. And Lan figuring out that moiraine has been shielded, not stilled, felt extremely contrived.

I think it's clever that Lan figures it out - most Aes Sedai are too uncomfortable around the concept of stilling to study it, Lan would have ample motivation to study it instead, and he had access to books at Verin's place. Lan would realise the bond wasn't broken and he wasn't suicidal, and with Moiraine confirming that she also wasn't, he got confirmation (along with Logain's info). Maybe someone like Verin could have figured it out if she had the whole picture, but Alanna and co didn't even believe Lan wasn't suicidal.

I'm not entirely sure about Siuan's attitude toward Rand (admittedly, things are different in the show with Moiraine supposedly being stilled and Rand's involvement with Lanfear already suspected), but Moiraine and Lan are right to help break him out. Just as in the books, Lanfear is a needed ally for Rand at this stage, here even more so than in the books (where she mainly serves the function of providing Rand with a good teacher). In the books, Moiraine is aware of the uneasy alliance between Rand and Lanfear and she keeps silent, not even advising Rand against it and she even travels with Lanfear (in disguise) there, too.

Keeping Rand shielded in the Tower (under the watchful eye of the Black Ajah) is not going to work in the medium or long run, either, not least because he isn't going to learn shit that way.

It's true that Moiraine and Lan are doing what Ishamael and Lanfear want them to do, but I suspect that Lanfear's plans for the outcome in Falme will differ from Ishy's, and be rather more to Moiraine's liking.

They are playing with fire and so is Rand, but that was and is necessary, book and show. Lanfear's tie to Lews/Rand is a gift from the pattern that gives Rand the tools he needs.

Verin may have been acting on her own or under orders from Lanfear, while I suppose Liandrin's hit on Moiraine was under orders from Lanfear as well (since Ishamael preferred her alive).

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I'm disappointed that the show didn't do more with Ingtar. It will be from left field if he's revealed as a DF. Considering that they did a good job with showing various DF motivations for turning to the dark, Ingtar got left behind on this matter. So if he dies as per the book it will be a bit of a waste.

...

Funny that no one has yet mentioned Perrin. His brief scene wasn't much, again. His storyline has felt like a boulder dragging the show down, which is really disappointing. But I hope something gets setup for him in the finale. As I mentioned, a lot needs to happen in the finale:

- Rand vs Ishy and declaring himself DR + more stuff with Lanfear

- A fight with the Seanchan that leads to Turak's death

- Mat's role and hopefully the blowing of the Horn of Valere

- Egwene's rescue

- Perrin and the Aiel doing something; possibly Hopper's death.

- Bornhald's doomed charge on Falme, which should lead to Dain starting on his hate path towards Perrin

- And Fain?

 

Agreed on Ingtar. What hasn't yet been setup at all, except for merely establishing general whitecloak presence on Toman Head, is the Whitecloaks' charge at Falme. That was a crucial point in the books in the sense that it, and the Seanchan reaction, was the direct trigger for the horn. How will that happen in the show, where Mat is seemingly all alone? Will he run into Rand ánd Perrin somehow? And how will the dagger play into this, if something happens with this in ep 8 as is seemingly being setup?

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

As for Rand and Moiraine... collaboration with Lanfear to a certain extent is in the books, too, where Moiraine is aware Lanfear visits Rand, and she and Egwene share worry about what is going on.

But straight up collaboration, which comes in the form of Lanfear killing at least hundreds of people and destroying the lives of many more? And Rand just straight up asks for it? That just comes across thoroughly wrong. 

 

Rand asked for her help to free him, not exactly to kill dozens or hundreds in order to do so. It was a reasonable request in his position (and he clearly wasn't happy with the way she was helping), and Lanfear could have been far more subtle.

Rand did ask her for a teacher in the books IIRC, or at least agreed readily to her proposal, and they worked together to subdue said teacher. He can't afford to say no to an alliance with Lanfear, the benefits in the long term greatly outweigh the risks and the short term disadvantages.

4 hours ago, David Selig said:

I'd have loved to have seen more of Elayne and Nynaeve, they have great chemistry together. Figuring out how to use the a'dam, for example. What we got was good, but too brief.

Perrin's stuff was again boring. Also, Aviendha getting beat up for defending herself in a fight made no sense to me.

Nynaeve's "don't encourage her" to Loial was a golden moment, loving this Elayne. The interaction between them was on point again. I hope they don't make Elayne too much like the version of the later books, and they should give her a far better storyline than the inconsequential Andorian succession.

Aviendha getting beat up - for what, losing someone in a fight where she got captured herself? - was the only part of the episode I straight up didn't like. Completely senseless, makes the Aiel seem like morons. How did they fight the Aiel war if they had to beat each other senseless everytime they lost a combatant? I never liked the whole ji and Toh thing in the books, but here it seems even more ridiculous.

[Argonath Diver]

Any skilled Go players here? I learned the basics back in college, enough to build a nice board in my dad's woodshop, but it's been twenty years. Logain's board had some spots that looked like proper eyes but the rest looked like random stones. Not that it necessarily had to be an actual game of Go, but that woulda been pretty cool. And it's been so long that perhaps it was indeed a realistically laid out board. Love that it's there, regardless.

[SpaceChampion]

Some trivia: Gitara was played by original Parent Trap actress Haley Mills.

[fionwe1987]

I don't like that Gitara became a "blind prophet" trope. 

Also, this version of her character... was she Aes Sedai advisor to Andor or not? Cause she kinda sets the whole thing up, asking Rand's mom to go to the Waste, sending his uncle to the Blight, and setting Moiraine and Siuan on their hunt for him. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Slurktan]

I'm not sure why people want Tear in the show at this point.  Callandor's only purpose in the books that can't be done by another Sa'angreal is for Rand to pull a King Arthur and draw the sword from the stone.  We already know he's the dragon, he knows he's the dragon.  Why bother?  You can bring it in later if you want but in the end Tear is actually quite inconsequential and should be treated as such.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

I'm not sure why people want Tear in the show at this point.  Callandor's only purpose in the books that can't be done by another Sa'angreal is for Rand to pull a King Arthur and draw the sword from the stone.  We already know he's the dragon, he knows he's the dragon.  Why bother?  You can bring it in later if you want but in the end Tear is actually quite inconsequential and should be treated as such.

Callandor has flaws which can assist with interesting character development for Rand, but also some advantages besides being a super-powerful sa'angreal. The Stone of Tear itself is cool, an ancient fortress that never fell. And Tear is Rand's first power base. While Rand is revealed as DR in Falme, a lot of people only see him as another False Dragon. It's the taking of Tear and Callandor that make more people believe he's the real deal or at least take him more seriously.

[Gertrude]

Honestly, the only darling I don't want them to kill is Rhuidean. If they can get that right, I will forgive them a lot. I was going to say Egwene in the White Tower (post-split) as well, but you know what, I could live with that playing out differently if it has to.

I am one of those that like the show taking the puzzle pieces and making them fit a smaller frame. Yeah, good bits get tossed or shaved off to fit, but in general, there are not many pieces that are that precious to me.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

The problem with TDR and Tear is it is pretty much a repeat of TGH. Stylistically and narratively it’s the same plot with some different details. While it is interesting in ways it just doesn’t need to be in the show right now. They really can’t film a second arc that ends much the same as a previous arc. So yeah I expect that to be postponed til later.

Like sure it’s a power base and all but it’s kinda weird. I’m the Dragon hurrah and I have a nation behind me. What am I going to do next? Oh yeah abandon this all and disappear into the waste for a year. He doesn’t use Callandor for a long time after this and the Tear support also doesn’t matter. They can move Tear til later.

Edit: Also filming a giant stone fortress has a cost in CGI and sets for a location that is used once in the whole series. In the end it’s just not worth the budget. It’s like people complaining about Flicker Flicker right now. To do that very small scene like the books would cost a huge amount of money. People need to figure cost vs reward when they think of what scenes to include. If they’re going to build a big set they need to use it multiple times.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Arakasi

[Maia]

Continuing the discussion from back on page 13 - I didn't have time to properly respond until now:

Verin and Caire aren't actually weak channelers, they are on the level of the upper 25-30% of the WT. And yes, Verin did create the Compulsion weave in a way that most weaves should have been invented, really, rather than strong channelers just making them up on instinct. She is a big exception and a precious unicorn, as always. Caire had learned and practiced the lore and skills of using the Bowl  her whole life - well, it was nice that she wasn't immediately superseded by some über-powerful whipper-snapper, as usually happens in WoT. So, I concede - it happened a couple of times that above average, but not exceptional channelers did something of importance with OP.  But I wanted more!

 

On 9/26/2023 at 10:57 PM, fionwe1987 said:

As you point out, splitting flows has nothing to do with strength. Egwene is weaker than Nynaeve and all the Forsaken, after all, and is able to split her flows just as much when using less than the weakest known channeler, Morghase.

 

I wouldn't say nothing. Egwene is still among the strongest female channelers in the series. And IIRC Nynaeve's Healing was once described as using so many flows that Elayne or maybe Egwene couldn't follow them, so we don't really know if she can't do as much. Maybe Egwene splitting the flows more than Rand is an elusive expression of female dexterity in weaving?  However, I am pretty sure that it was mentioned when Egwene was thrown off the boat by the Sea Folk that most female channelers can't even split the flows 4x? And while, having learned to do so because of her strength she  can still do it when weak, we certainly never saw anyone who was inherently weak being capable of anything remotely similar, despite centuries of practice.  That's the problem I have with the cult of raw strength in the OP in WoT - practically every aspect of channeling is tied into it, bar Talents, which are also inborn.

Regarding application of Trolloc Wars strategies and tactics to Tarmon Gaidon - widespread Travelling and mixed circles ditto should have fundamentally changed what was practical and limited the usefulness of normal troops and their positioning.

 

Quote

The Aiel men who got turned (and this has been happening for millenia, so that means you can have very old male channelers who got captured hundreds of years ago) would be a considerable ace in the hole

 

No, men didn't live for more than a few decades while saidin was tainted. If madness didn't get them, the rotting sickness did. And frankly, while the idea of a city in the Blight was cool, it doesn't make sense that  turned Aiel channelers could have been kept there without it getting destroyed before Ishamael was freed from the Bore, 15 years before the series start. Like, why would evil channelers sit idle for decades twiddling their thumbs and waiting to go mad or rot alive? And how could a localized mini-Breaking have been prevented once they inevitably went mad?

Now, I expected a reveal that Ishamael had been recruiting male channelers  since his return and that some of Taim's cronies and he himself, if not Taimandred, were such, but having them there during Isam's childhood doesn't seem to fit.

There not being any Darkfriend WOs worked for me, because their ter'angreal tests seem better designed to weed out people so inclined. And Ishy didn't take them seriously, while he concentrated on sabotaging the White Tower.

I thought that Sharans eventual involvement was somewhat hinted at? But in connection with Graendal, who had their rulers in her harem and Sammael, because he was allied with her and was a general in need of an army with channelers. I certainly expected them to show up, but yes, giving them to Demandred seemed random.

 

Quote

I do agree having the Aes Sedai-Asha'man who were bonded and working together figure out the differences and find ways to maximize the power of mixed gender circles would have been nice

 

Very much agree. In fact, I expected to see something like that as a run-up to the Cleansing - figuring out how it all works, since so much was supposed to be so very different. But nope, they could just do it.

I don't think that the Second Oath would have prevented the AS from making large shields, like the ones the Legion of the Dragon uses. Anything can be ultimately used as a weapon - but not everything would be considered a weapon by an AS. And circles of powerful novices should have allowed Leanna and Bode, at the very least, to produce a good number of shields and armor. Just have them made from very thin metal or foil prior to transformation to reduce the weight. Yes, they can't be destroyed, but so what?

 

Quote

What the Black Ajah did in New Spring is what provides the explanation, and a good one. What's the retcon, there?

 

The retcon is that in EoTW Moiraine wanted to bring the boys to Tar Valon, in TGH Siuan seemed not entirely convinced that the Black Ajah actually existed, in TDR she was surprised that the BAs could break the Three Oaths, and in TDR and TSR both she and Moiraine thought that as the Amyrlin she would be able to unite the countries in support of the Dragon Reborn. Also, Siuan's security precautions in TSR were non-existent and she was completely surprised and shocked by the coup. None of which makes any sense in view of them being fully aware of what happened to Tamra and her searchers and Moiraine's encounter with Merean.