[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Gertrude]

sooooooo ... that was something. Lot to process.

 

I liked quite a bit of it, and I suspect I will have more thoughts after it sets a while, but it didn't all quite land with me. Some of it seemed really cheesy and mostly I'm OK with that. The horn looked like ass. The Heroes appearance was done well, and hell yeah Uno. Cheesy, but I'm totally fine with that. The knife becoming a lightsaber, cheesy, but since they hadn't built it up, ok. I like Mat in general. A past Hero? That's ... he's not a bloody hero. Please let that fade from his memory as he gets farther from the event and just leave his language and fighting skills and please, please don't make that the red door stuff. Rand just blasting Turak, sure, he didn't earn a victory there with the sword, but didn it even need to be shown? Loial just walking up with the horn, cheesy, but get stuff moving, sure. Most of it kind of felt rushed.

I loved the delicate weaves Moiraine used to reinstate the bond - I'd love to see more CGI like that for some weaves. I did kind of like how they emphasized that the 5 are the important ones and faced down Ishamael. Yes, Rand is the Dragon, but they were all key players in the picture, it's good to make that clear to non-book readers. I loved the ending with Moggy. I can not wait to see shenanigans next season. But ... are we losing Fares Fares? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I don't know how he would come back from that, but I really want him to.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gertrude

[IFR]

I loved it. I haven't responded to people because I wanted to see how this show evolved, and it didn't disappoint.

My favorite part was people glancing up, and the first guy on the tower in the distance they see with an obvious One Power illusion occurring they excitedly declare the Dragon. I guess that's all it took.

The Heroes were hilarious.

Ingtar going out like an idiot while the indestructible Aiel fled was excellent. There's so much to love about this episode.

I guess it's likely the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are out? Now ashandarei is just a dagger of Shadar Logoth tied to a stick with the strongest knot ever?

The writers clearly thought this all through with their extraordinary collective brilliance. What a feat of writing. Benioff and Weiss could only dream of this technical achievement.

Edited October 6, 2023 by IFR

[fionwe1987]

Avengers Assemble!

I don't mind the explicit affirmation that the Two Rivers folk, Elayne, Avinendha, Moiraine, Lan and Loial are all Heroes of the Horn. It's always been speculated, and it makes reasonable sense. I'd add Min to the list, also. And Thom. Basically, the crew that Min sees sparks around, with Rand at the center of it. 

Uno... interesting. Gaidal, I presume, and we got brief glimpses of Brigitte when the Heroes do like the Ghost Army from Return of the King. That was all fairly well done.

The Dragon Banner as an illusion. I like it. We know Moiraine can do illusions at this scale, and her attack on the ship was also suitably well done. Also, is Lan back to being UberBadass on that scale that some of you care so much about? I mean, snatching arrows from the air gracefully and smoothly using it to kill next Seanchan rando has to count, right? We can presume the show is saying that with the bond masked, he's less of a badass, which seems fine to me, and has some interesting implications for why Alanna masks her bond with her possible Darkfriend BedWarder. 

Speaking of badass, what the fuck are they doing with Nynaeve? Healing is her thing, and both finales have had her being helpless. And the two Wondergirls who struggle to nurse a mildly injured bird to health get to do the cool Healing? Not a fan of this. At all. They had plenty of ways to do this right. The Horn blowing could have suddenly made her able to channel and Heal Elayne perfectly, and she actually does Heal Rand in the books, so they could have had Elayne join Egwene on shield duty while Nynaeve struggled to pull it together and Heal Rand. I'm not a fan of this. It is a dishonor that deserves a very firm braid tug that threatens to pull all the hair from the scalp. 

Back to things that do not make me rage, they did a good job integrating Dain Bornhald, Hopper's death (seriously that was not fun to watch with my dog next to me) and setup for how Perrin and the Whitecloak story will look. 

And hello Moghedien. At first, I thought we'd see Ishy reincarnated right away, but this was a good twist. I love the actor who played her. The spider stuff was suitably creepy, and they set up her character very well, because she does start off way bolder because she's so much better than the Aes Sedai. I look forward to her interactions with Nynaeve and Egwene, though at the rate they're going, Nynaeve will be replaced by Nicola, or some other character, while she stands by watching helplessly, not even fucking tugging her braid! 

On the whole, this episode worked for me. It was a good finale, very much all action, that mostly paid off.

Except for what they did to Ingtar. He's the only redeemed Darkfriend, but in this turning, he gets relegated to side character who dies a forgettable death? Ugh.

Based on this episode, I think it's likely Falme and the Tower will be where they'll do the Tear stuff from tSR, for now. I still think there's a White Tower trip there, somewhere,and then the setup will be to combine Tanchico and Tear, and push Callandor into the season after. So Rand goes to Rhuidean and gets the Aiel, and then they attack Tear, and its a long siege. Maybe Couladin is a channeler, secretly Asmodean, and declares himself false Dragon and False Car'a'carn, and heads to Tear for the sword, with Sammael/Be'lal already inside. Then you can have the Battle of Cairhein outside Tear, and drop Callandor in there.

Lots of ways to go, but I'll definitely be watching.

Quote

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Gertrude]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Speaking of badass, what the fuck are they doing with Nynaeve.

Yeah, that didn't sit well with me either. I would have loved for her to find that anger and do something useful - her and Elayne were absolutely afterthoughts here. Neither Renna or Seta are alive to sow the seeds of doubt in the Seanchan way of life, but that didn't do much in the books either, so meh. The girls know. I really, really would have loved to see Rand wield some beast power against Ishy at the end before ending him - break through his defensive shield or something. I really am disappointed that Rand hasn't had a 'moment' yet. 

Like I said, I liked it fine, but it was a little underwhelming in some ways. I wish it would have exceeded my expectations instead of feeling like ticking off boxes.

[fionwe1987]

17 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, that didn't sit well with me either. I would have loved for her to find that anger and do something useful - her and Elayne were absolutely afterthoughts here. Neither Renna or Seta are alive to sow the seeds of doubt in the Seanchan way of life, but that didn't do much in the books either, so meh. The girls know. I really, really would have loved to see Rand wield some beast power against Ishy at the end before ending him - break through his defensive shield or something. I really am disappointed that Rand hasn't had a 'moment' yet. 

Elayne, at least, had something to do. She Healed Rand while bleeding from an arrow to her thigh, with which she hopped up a pretty tall tower. 

I also feel it was absurd they didn't have Nynaeve at least struggle with torturing Seta. Some of the writing on this in tGH is twee, but Nynaeve is a Healer, and she shouldn't be going the Semirhage route, but I think it's clear they're going to make *all* of them "darker". Egwene killing Renna also felt wrong. Renna having to helplessly witness her former damane fight a Forsaken would have been better, IMO. And then she could take news to Seanchan, while trying to hide what she knows. Lost opportunity, there. 

17 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Like I said, I liked it fine, but it was a little underwhelming in some ways. I wish it would have exceeded my expectations instead of feeling like ticking off boxes.

Yeah it wasn't great, or anything. An episode or two more wouldn't have hurt to set up some of this, and improve on the scenes they have here, but even without that, I think they moved too many pieces needlessly in the finale. 

Also, I'm guessing no Finns of any kind, except Donal? The Ashan'deri being replaced by the ruby dagger... not a fan of this mashup. It's clear though that Fain is playing a sort of long game. But when is Rand to get the other wound? From a reanimated Ishamael when he battles for Callandor (if that even happens)?

In the books, those two wounds are how Rand figures out how to cleanse Saidin. I hope they don't drop that, it was a good piece of world building. 

ETA: agree that Ishy's "death" was dissatisfying. Sheathing the sword and all that from the books made the emotional stakes of the battle clear, and did a far better job establishing Rand's personality, than what we got here. And not fighting Turak, I get, but they missed a chance to have Lan teach Rand, and then Rand employ what he learned. It would have made the finale work a lot better. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Corvinus85]

Well, well, well. A solid finale, I liked the episode quite a bit, though there were stuff that annoyed me.

NOTE: Everyone not bothering with spoilers tags, so here goes:

At the beginning of the episode I realized that the large discs in Ishy's room were the other seals, but I felt like an idiot for not figuring it out in a previous episode, based on the show's evidence. This does beg the question, what exactly is holding the DO's prison closed? Btw, 8 Forsaken confirmed.

The good:

- Egwene freeing herself. Egwene standing up to Ishy. Can the show elevate her anymore after this? (Rhetorical)

- Mat freeing himself, finally getting a moment to shine, and leading the Heroes of the Horn.

- The depiction of the Heroes was good, if not as epic as I had hoped, but budget and all that. They should have turned the tide of the battle, not simply help Mat fight through a wall of Seanchan soldiers.

- The Whitecloack attack on Falme - our first view of some good generalship in the show.

- The fact that the entire episode was in daylight. They could have so easily made this in the dark, to try to hide various limitations. For the battle they made good use of the narrow streets.

- Even Perrin got his moment, and his fucking axe, for fuck's sake, finally. Hopper's death was brutal, but required and decently done and it setup the conflict between Perrin and Dain. Unfortunately, I don't know how this conflict can be resolved now. Dain might just have to die eventually.

- @fionwe1987 Avengers assemble indeed, but it was a good callback to Min's vision about the sparks of light against the Shadow, if at a small scale.

- Lanfear's role - she was the lady from Cairhien who helped Loial and the others steal the Horn. And setting others things up.

- Moghedien - suitably creepy and dangerous. I look forward to her coming conflict with Nynaeve and the others.

- Some consistent writing with previous setups (or non-setups) - it would have been absolutely ridiculous for Rand to have his duel with Turak as per the book considering his lack of training; I mean the most lessons he had was the name of a few sword forms from a loony guy in the Carihien mental hospital. So Rand simply pulling a metaphorical Indiana Jones was right.

- The dagger from SL - ehhh, really a lightsaber. I hope that doesn't become Mat's ashandarei. It wouldn't make sense really. And did the writers forget that Fain stabbed Loial with it in the season 1 finale. Or did Mat use his ta'veren Force powers and activated it somehow? Not a fan of this, don't know how they'll spin this further.

The bad (and the annoying)

- We still didn't get much from Rand - he "kills" Ishy and gets the heron mark, but again, where is the raw power, the strength? It should have been him creating the flaming Dragon (pulled out of a memory of Lews Therin perhaps) instead of Moiraine, who had already done enough.

- Moiraine destroying the Seanchan fleet was a stretch. She must have told herself they were all Darkfriends, but that's not what the dialogue with Lan implied. And really, the logistics of the damane channeling from the ship to shield Rand atop the tower was weird. I'm pretty sure they need line of sight.

- Nynaeve - echoing everyone else here, yep, WTF. I said it before, but it seems the writers are afraid to show her getting angry and raging. And that is bullshit if true. Nynaeve often gives herself justified reasons to rage, like seeing innocents get hurt; the setup was right there for her, but nope. I suspect her moment of learning to channel like a normal Aes Sedai will come sooner in the show, perhaps next season.

- Again, the Seanchan were nerfed as I said early in the season. It's one thing to elevate the Whitecloaks, but not at the price of downgrading the Seanchan. 

- It sucks we didn't get to see the two captured Aes Sedai. When the damane were channeling from the tower, I wondered if they were going to mention the AS's inability to use the OP in battle against people. But too much detail for one episode I suppose.

- Ingtar being just a small side character. And stealing the Horn. I suppose with Lanfear helping out the theft was easy, but still, an extremely rushed scene.

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

The horn looked like ass.

lol, the Seashell of Valere. An interesting design. Difficult to carry. Not sure if they can put it back in the box with what the dagger did to it.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Corvinus85

[SpaceChampion]

10 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

- Moghedien - suitably creepy and dangerous. I look forward to her coming conflict with Nynaeve and the others.

It's like they cast Bjork as Moggy.  Not what I was expecting but it works.

[SpaceChampion]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Avengers Assemble!

I don't mind the explicit affirmation that the Two Rivers folk, Elayne, Avinendha, Moiraine, Lan and Loial are all Heroes of the Horn. It's always been speculated, and it makes reasonable sense. I'd add Min to the list, also. And Thom. Basically, the crew that Min sees sparks around, with Rand at the center of it.

Huh?  Based on what?

Quote

The Horn blowing could have suddenly made her able to channel

Why??  There was zero indication in the episode any of them but Mat is tied to the Horn.

Edited October 6, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[SpaceChampion]

Since the original intention was to have the 3 boys with the Shienarans this season, and they had to rewrite, the original plan probably was to expose Ingtar as a Darkfriend but obviously the change of plans forced that to get cut.

[Slurktan]

I liked it.

They had Elayne heal Rand not very effectively so that the half healed wound is still there as in the books, plus Rand gets to see her with the sun framing her as she saves him.  For the luvs. Show Nyneave wouldn't have failed the healing so I get why they didn't have her do it.  I like that her block is more than only just having to be angry it seems.

Very much liked the change of Bornhald killing hopper and then Perrin killing him.  Sets up the two rivers arc for next season without any need of Fain.

Aviendha, Bain and Chiad found the car'a'carn I guess they were looking for him afterall.

So Moggy the primary villain for next season with Lanfear getting Asmodean to teach Rand.

Not named that I can recall but according to the credits the surviving Shienaran is Masema which is nice.

I really did not like Moiraine breaking the 3 oaths though. I'm curious to see how Judkins justifies that.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Slurktan

[JGP]

Lots to digest, but from my small place as an artist and former animator, both design and animation of the Dragon Banner were regrettably bad.

Edited October 6, 2023 by JGP

[oberonus]

ugh..

 

Ingtar scene was terrible. i think i can hold 50 people here you should run. everyone stays put until he dies then runs. Robs him of his entire character arc. 

Loial somehow ends up with the horn just because

egwene is ablet to collar renna somehow. 

somehow catapults cause fire explosions. apparenlty no sul'dam/damane combo can stop boulders

Seanchan can see the fire comign to the boats but just decide to stare at it and not do anything

Rand kils Turak. I like it, but robs him of becoming a swordmaster

 

LOVED Lanfear and Ishamael. They're the best on the show

 

 

[Corvinus85]

23 minutes ago, oberonus said:

somehow catapults cause fire explosions. apparenlty no sul'dam/damane combo can stop boulders

There were no fire explosions. The trebuchet threw rocks, one or two hit the top of the tower which destroyed crenellations and sent people flying. Renna tells Egwene the attack came from their position, as the other pairs of channelers were focused in other directions. 

The bigger question is what exactly did the Whitecloaks do to cause the mist? At first I thought it was just their cavalry running around until they caused a dust storm, but I have no idea how the dust still lingered in the air to hide a bunch of trebuchet being wheeled to the walls.

[karaddin]

I think a number of the smaller things people are unhappy with, such as Ingtar, are simply casualties of the necessary plot rewrite and only getting 8 episodes.

I actually liked Nyn's block having genuine impact rather than being able to Hulk her way around it whenever it's important. It felt like prioritizing the character moment of her accepting her impotence in the moment as a step to breaking her block in the near future.

I also really liked Rand dealing with Turak. It's not swordplay lessons from Lan but "put the mission first, you can't risk the world just to engage in a stupid duel" feels entirely in keeping with what Lan was trying to tell them all in ep7. And it's right, it's absolutely dumb for Rand to do that. It also showcased him using the same weaves that Ishy uses battering down Egwene's shield and we haven't seen anything like it from the other channelers - it's the dexterity with weaves rather than raw power and it's probably Lews providing AoL weaves. The closest we've seen from modern channelers is Siuan's crown of daggers (and on the subject - she's been portrayed as significantly faster than most of the other Aes Sedai). Also noteworthy that it's the first time Rand intentionally kills other humans - he's lagging behind the others on that lol.

I'm definitely not assuming this early that the Finn/doorways are out, and I really doubt this is actually Mat's permanent weapon - the dagger is evil and dangerous, I think it much more likely that will be addressed next season and he still gets his proper one.

I'm not actually 100% that Egwene killed Renna - that's the obvious implication but it's possible she released the Adam at the same time Renna passed out. I'm assuming she did kill her, but there's enough ambiguity that if they want to have Renna dealing with the whole Suldam can channel thing it's not a retcon.

I noticed early in the fight that the damane we had seen the most - the blonde one - wasn't on the tower and when Ishy said Suroth was to have her strongest on the ship in reserve I'm now 100% convinced that's Alivia. She was also the one that was finding the women the could channel to collar.

Ishy and Lanfear were perfect - he never doubted for a second that she was going to betray him, yet he was still caught off guard by how thoroughly she fucked up his plans - everything turned out exactly as she wanted except the other Forsaken being released, which itself was an excellent "fuck you" back to her.

Also not buying for a second that Ishy is dead and we're done with Fares Fares. The father of lies seeming to die immediately following one illusion of himself being revealed right before yet another illusion is used by someone else... There's a lot of misdirection going on there. And if there's an explanation for why a heated sword stabbing his heart would make him turn to ash and blow away I missed it. He barely even defended himself as soon as Rand is up - a couple of years darts that Rand swats aside then watches as Rand takes 3 steps to get to him and stabs him without lifting a hand.

[karaddin]

Also I was entirely satisfied with the way they had Min's vision about Mat come true. Ticked every box I was looking for in paying it off, and it wasn't one of the ones Min understands.

[karaddin]

Sorry to go the triple post but saw this suggestion so rewatched the last scene to confirm - Moggy's trap for Lanfear pulls her into a dream. She's walking along and the light looks warm and normal then suddenly the light is cold, the fire has no warmth and the candles barely give any light at all. Moggy doesn't channel to contain Lanfear, it's dream manipulation and when she vanishes it looks nothing like traveling and the light snaps back to normal and warm.

Very nicely done.

[Arakasi]

Pretty much agree with Karradin here. Really enjoyed the episode as did my wife. Sure I wish the episode was 20 minutes longer. Or really that this was a two episode finale but eight episode series is the thing now and that’s not going to change.

[karaddin]

Mulling things over a bit more - the revelation that Lanfear sent the broken seal and poem to Moiraine in the first place had me wondering how she was so across the relationships of the kids+Moiraine/Lan and where Moiraine was located to give her that push.

Then I remembered that it was heavily implied in episode 7 that Verin was taking orders from Lanfear, and that Moiraine was staying with Verin for months between seasons. So that actually fits together really nicely.

Obviously Verin is actually on the side of the light but she's playing her deep cover very carefully and I think would provide enough of the details to cover what I had question marks over.

[Maia]

So, I really liked this season on the whole, most new material included, but I feel that they fumbled the finale a bit. It was OK, but could have been better.

 

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Speaking of badass, what the fuck are they doing with Nynaeve? Healing is her thing, and both finales have had her being helpless.

 

What got me was that she pushed the arrow through without breaking off the fletching, nor did she wrap up the wound. This made her look  totally incompetent as a conventional healer too. I am OK with the block being a real hindrance to her, though.

I liked Perrin's set-up with the Whitecloaks... except for how Valda suddenly forgot that he wanted to kill him, once Bornhald dispatched Hopper. Or for how his own men stopped Dain from attacking Perrin for killing his father, when they could have made a Seanchan attack separate them instead. This felt pretty clumsy to me. There was generally a lot of awkward staging for action scenes, IMHO, and of course I understand the challenges, but I feel that with a few small changes, like the one I mention above, they could have felt less cheesy.

I think that Fain still may be involved with Perrin's TR plot in the next season, Dain just has a much better motivation than in the books.

 

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I still think there's a White Tower trip there, somewhere,and then the setup will be to combine Tanchico and Tear, and push Callandor into the season after

 

Nothing speaks against Callandor being in Rhuidean instead and getting merged with the male sa'angreal of Choedan Kal. They clearly made it so that Mat doesn't have to return to the White Tower for healing, so I am not sure why Egwene would. Nynaeve and Elayne might, or they could go to Caemlyn to warn Morgase and tangle with the BA and FS there. It seems that Mat doesn't need to visit Rhuidean for his memories now, so maybe he escorts them? Since the fight against Gawyn and Galad was teased by the showrunner, though personally I don't care about it.  I wonder if they are going to expressly connect the dagger with the Finn - IIRC there was a lot of speculation that Mordeth visited them and that whatever power he got from them contributed to the formation of Mashadar.

 

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Egwene freeing herself. Egwene standing up to Ishy.

 

I didn't like either, but the last one is particularly egregious. Why are we supposed to be afraid of the FS if she could do that and she isn't even the most powerful 3rd Ager? Couldn't she have disrupted Rand's shield instead? For the record, I am perfectly OK with Rand Indiana Jonesing Turok. Or with him needing help. Just not like this.

Ishy's "death" was very anti-climactic too. It is not final, of course, or at least it shouldn't be - if the FS could have been properly killed with OP in the show canon, AoLers wouldn't have bothered sealing them.

 

6 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

It sucks we didn't get to see the two captured Aes Sedai.

I thought that Egwene used Maigan's a'dam on Renna? At least, the dead woman had the same hair. But yea, if so there was a lot of the Third Oath breaking going on between that and Moiraine. I really hated that they decided to purposefully deny Moiraine a loophole of believing that Seanchan are an army of Darkfriends, which she had every reason to do. Just why? We already knew that she is prepared to be ruthless in the service of her mission, no need to reiterate it again, and break established show worldbuilding. I am OK with changing things for the show if necessary/convenient, but it has to be consistent.

OTOH, it made sense to me that sul'dam and damane didn't stop shielding Rand, even as Moiraine attacked their ship - they are conditioned to obey orders onto death. Of course,  Seanchan should have had many more damane after finding several  in that village alone. I guess that poor Ryma got shipped out before any of this happened?

 

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The bigger question is what exactly did the Whitecloaks do to cause the mist?

 

It is a smoke screen, they sent boys with smoke censers ahead of the charge - you can briefly  see them through the mist. But another stupid thing was how Perrin with armed Aiel in tow just openely entered through the gates.

[karaddin]

I don't see Moiraine as breaking the oaths, just tip toeing right up to them. If the Dragon is killed or gentled it puts the entire world in danger, she believes that to be true so that gives her the leeway to sink the ships. Skirting the edges of the oaths is one of the most Aes Sedai things there is.

I also feel like the objection to Egwene delaying Ishy treats it as her being much more effective than she was. She's just stone walling with no attacks of her own, it doesn't last long and he's already breaking through - all this while he's already used a lot of energy breaking the seals on the other 6 Forsaken.

I think a lot of the more minor issues you have are reasonable, I think Rafe's technical skill improved significantly this season compared to season 1 but there's still plenty to learn and hope he improves as much into the next one. Personally I'm ok with taking the questionable parts of the Perrin stuff in exchange for getting a much more legitimate grudge against him on the part of Dain - obviously getting that improvement without a trade off would be even better though lol.

I also winced at the fletching still being on the bolt.