Who is the most famous/infamous/ahead of the rest in their field?

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

31 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

 

(Yeah, Octavian technically won two civil wars but I watched the HBO show and he was a jerk towards the end of it, why give that guy any credit?)

Because Antony was a bigger jerk in the show (although a loveable one) 

[A wilding]

NVM: missed that there was another page of posts.

Edited September 17, 2023 by A wilding

[Spockydog]

Lance Armstrong definitely belongs on the list. As the most infamous drug cheat in sporting history. 

[Tywin et al.]

Andre the Giant: Greatest drunk of all time. 

[polishgenius]

4 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

He was a short lived politician who grabbed power after a civil war to became a power hungry dictator which immediately resulted in his assassination and chaos…I’d argue that Winston Churchill is an example of a great politician, and he did so while operating within an actual functioning democracy as well

 

 

Churchill was a shite politician. Almost all he really has on his track record is leading Britain through the war. He was voted out literally immediately afterwards because he ran a terrible campaign that let Attlee in, his second tenure a few years later was marked by him trying and failing to keep the British Empire together, and as others have mentioned, before the war his record was... not great. Some positives, but some absolutely ferocious failures and mistakes, including the aforementioned Galipolli and sending the Black and Tans into Ireland. Even 'being right about Hitler' is really a mixed bag as far as proving his worth as a politician goes, because he didn't convince the nation of that until far too late. I've seen it said that his reputation was bad to the point that him denouncing Hitler actually made opposing the Nazis less credible, because if Churchill felt that strongly about it he was probably wrong. 

[dog-days]

2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

And being the one who won the civil was also helps. 
 

(Yeah, Octavian technically won two civil wars but I watched the HBO show and he was a jerk towards the end of it, why give that guy any credit?)

Octavian shows up in two Shakespeare plays, surviving both and ending up as Top Roman; Caesar just gets one and dies halfway through it. 

Octavian manages not just to entertain the history academics but also provides amusement to theologians as they ponder why on earth he'd declare a census that required everyone to return to their place of birth. 

Finally, Octavian was played by BRIAN BLESSED in I Claudius and so has automatically won. At being the bestest Roman, but also at everything else. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by dog-days

[Spockydog]

Churchill was one of the worst men ever to lead the nation. A truly terrible human being. 

Once you look beyond WW2, all kinds of horrific stories emerge. Dude makes Boris Johnson look like the Dalai Lama. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Jesus...Tik Tok was right this week...men DO constantly think about Rome...

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

53 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Churchill was one of the worst men ever to lead the nation. A truly terrible human being. 

Once you look beyond WW2, all kinds of horrific stories emerge. Dude makes Boris Johnson look like the Dalai Lama. 

Britain would’ve lost WW2 in 1940-41 without his leadership.He also had a great working relationship and support from Roosevelt.I’m not his biggest fan as he did cause a major famine in india during that same period but you gotta face facts. Boris Johnson would’ve made the nazis beat UK in 1939 itself….

Edited September 17, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[Spockydog]

Yeah, as I said, have a look beyond WW2. Dude was a racist, genocidal maniac.

[DanteGabriel]

8 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I've always thought it was weird that Magellan is given credit for being the first to circumnavigate the globe even though he died like halfway round.

Yep, murdered by my people after getting involved in local politics, attacking one local chief on behalf of another. Rookie mistake.

The chief who allied with them was so disappointed with their failure to kill his rival that he poisoned a bunch of Magellan's men at a dinner afterwards.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, dog-days said:

Octavian shows up in two Shakespeare plays, surviving both and ending up as Top Roman; Caesar just gets one and dies halfway through it. 

Yeah, but the play is name after him.

Quote

Octavian manages not just to entertain the history academics but also provides amusement to theologians as they ponder why on earth he'd declare a census that required everyone to return to their place of birth. 

Quote

Finally, Octavian was played by BRIAN BLESSED in I Claudius and so has automatically won. At being the bestest Roman, but also at everything else. 

Yeah that’s kind of cool ngl. 

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Churchill was a shite politician. Almost all he really has on his track record is leading Britain through the war. He was voted out literally immediately afterwards because he ran a terrible campaign that let Attlee in, his second tenure a few years later was marked by him trying and failing to keep the British Empire together, and as others have mentioned, before the war his record was... not great. Some positives, but some absolutely ferocious failures and mistakes, including the aforementioned Galipolli and sending the Black and Tans into Ireland. Even 'being right about Hitler' is really a mixed bag as far as proving his worth as a politician goes, because he didn't convince the nation of that until far too late. I've seen it said that his reputation was bad to the point that him denouncing Hitler actually made opposing the Nazis less credible, because if Churchill felt that strongly about it he was probably wrong. 

Yeah, but I’ll give Churchill this: regarding ww2, absolutely the right guy at the right time. 

Stalin doesn’t get enough credit for winning ww2. 

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Stalin doesn’t get enough credit for winning ww2. 

 

 

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

 

Fine, Zhukov then. 

Regardless, the eastern front in ww2 wasn’t a sideshow. It was the show. The red scare and Cold War kind of papered over this.

If Soviet resistance to the Nazi invasion collapses any time before there’s a real second front in Europe, the world looks like a very different place today. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Andre the Giant: Greatest drunk of all time. 

Also one of the nicest, thank god. 

[polishgenius]

Sure. 

 

I just don't think you have to, or even can, hand any credit whatsoever to Stalin for that, and let's not forget that he did his own war criming on the way to liberate Europe from the Nazi war criming

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

11 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Sure. 

I just don't think you have to, or even can, hand any credit whatsoever to Stalin for that, and let's not forget that he did his own war criming on the way to liberate Europe from the Nazi war criming

Sure you can. It’s possible to be a monster and still be a consequential figure. And if one of those consequences is you preempt other monsters, just as well. 

Speaking of which, has Gengis Khan been mentioned? Throw in Alexander the Great as well. Those two should be at the top of the list actually. 

[Fragile Bird]

One last point about Magellan and the fact he didn’t come back. Everyone knows that the man who conquered Everest was Sir Edmund Hillary, together with his Sherpa, Tenzing Norgay. However, it might be George Mallory who was actually the first, but he died and so is forgotten. I remember that when Mallory’s body was finally found, 75 years after his disappearance, there was a great deal of speculation that he was on his way back down, but he didn’t make it so the glory goes to Hillary.

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Sure you can. It’s possible to be a monster and still be a consequential figure.

 

Sure, and Stalin was consequential in many ways

 

but

 

He didn't open up the Eastern front: that was Hitler

You'll never convince me that Stalin as a politician/speaker had the inspirational effect Churchill did in galvanising Russia's resistance

While I am amenable to education on this score, since I don't really know, I'm fairly sure he wasn't responsible for the tactics responsible for driving Germany back either. 

Hell, even the industrial mobilisation- that would have happened whoever was leader. It was an inevitable response to the invasion.

 

Basically I think Stalin just happened to be in charge at the time and anyone else in the same position would have had the same effect. 

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

One last point about Magellan and the fact he didn’t come back. Everyone knows that the man who conquered Everest was Sir Edmund Hillary, together with his Sherpa, Tenzing Norgay. However, it might be George Mallory who was actually the first, but he died and so is forgotten. I remember that when Mallory’s body was finally found, 75 years after his disappearance, there was a great deal of speculation that he was on his way back down, but he didn’t make it so the glory goes to Hillary.

I forget what book it was in maybe L.S. Summer's Sherpas?  (There were a few similar books I had to read for an anthro class 20 years ago, that's the only one i still have on the shelf) but there was a pretty strong argument made that the Sherpas had almost certainly climbed Everest before any westerner.