Kalbear Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 No cute comment or anything this time. Please continue. Many-Faced Votary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Israel says no letting aid into Gaza until hostages released. But I don't think this will make Hamas release them. It will just lead to innocent deaths. Many-Faced Votary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 12, 2023 Author Share Posted October 12, 2023 The blocking of aid is a good thing to talk about, IMO. Like, I 100% get Israel attacking locations that were known to have launched rockets or places where known Hamas folks are located. It's brutal and will result in civilian casualties, but the stated goal and intent at least is not to cause collateral damage. I can't say that about blockading anything. There is very little military value in that, and it is entirely general in scope. What is the justification presented for depriving 2.5 million people of food, water and fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFR Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said: I can't say that about blockading anything. There is very little military value in that, and it is entirely general in scope. What is the justification presented for depriving 2.5 million people of food, water and fuel? Half of whom are children. dbergkvist, Craving Peaches and Many-Faced Votary 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1,500 dead, 6,500 wounded in Gaza, mostly civilians. Many-Faced Votary, Craving Peaches, Ser Scot A Ellison and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) The situation is dire in the hospitals in Gaza from what I've read. No more beds, bodies propped up outside, running low on medical supplies, emergency services being targeted... Also, Palestinians being shot in West Bank. Palestinian man, son attending funeral procession in West Bank shot dead | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera 13 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said: I can't say that about blockading anything. There is very little military value in that, and it is entirely general in scope. What is the justification presented for depriving 2.5 million people of food, water and fuel? I agree with Mr. Yousaf. I don't think there is a justification. Quote “What we need leaders to do, whether they are in the West or wherever they are across the world, is to treat an Israeli life and a Palestinian life as equal,” he said. “The collective punishment of over two million people in Gaza – men, women and children – simply cannot be justified.” Israel-Gaza: Collective punishment of millions not justified – Humza Yousaf | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera Also, the potential use of White Phosphorus is very concerning. Rights group accuses Israel of using banned weapon in Gaza | Israel-Palestine conflict | Al Jazeera Edited October 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches dbergkvist and Many-Faced Votary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 And… the misspelling of “Israel… ‘Isarael’” is trending on Twitter… :facepalm: https://x.com/flutemagician/status/1712471170367607134?s=46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) Based on the highest-possible estimate for Hamas members (which is likely an overestimate) and assuming every Hamas member is in Gaza (they are not), there are approximately 57 civilians, 28 of them children, for every 1 member of Hamas in Gaza. Shutting off the entire Gaza Strip, denying them food, water and power, and bombing areas in the somewhat questionable hope of hitting actual Hamas positions and degrading their capabilities feels both desperate and unlikely to achieve much material success. I get that Israel's strategic and tactical options are limited and public opinion demands an answer for the atrocities of the weekend, but this seems utterly pointless, and as the body count on the Palestinian sides rockets up, international opinion which was firmly on Israel's side on Saturday will quickly weaken. Collective punishment cannot be a viable military or political option, and neither can statements like the one suggesting that the entire civilian population of Gaza is now being held hostage for the prisoners taken at the weekend. Frankly, Israeli agents taking out the Hamas leadership wherever they are (Qatar, for a lot of them, at the moment although I expect they'll try to scatter), if it can be done avoiding collateral casualties, is probably a better idea than this. The people who ordered the trigger to be pulled will not be inconvenienced at all, and will have tens of thousands of fresh volunteers as a result. Edited October 12, 2023 by Werthead Prince of the North, Craving Peaches, House Balstroko and 5 others 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said: What is the justification presented for depriving 2.5 million people of food, water and fuel? Everyone here realizes all those people are in a spot that is half the size of NYC? Elsewhere's I'm seeing so many saying the only solution is to nuke the 'cities' of Gaza. Many of them are Israelis -- or claim to be. Could one assume they are very young, perhaps? and perhaps don't understand how nuclear fall out works? I mean all this tiny region of Palestinians and Israelis is much smaller than the island with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And no, Israel's nuclear arsenal does not include neutrons that destroy ONLY people and don't harm infrastructure (nobody does, for that matter, afaik, unless it's true that Russia has some, and tried them out). And honestly, if there is that much radiation, that all living tissue is destroyed, that would included all things biological, and I can't believe that it doesn't stay in I dunno, concrete? Edited October 12, 2023 by Zorral dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Werthead said: Collective punishment cannot be a viable military or tactical option, and neither can statements like the one suggesting that the entire civilian population of Gaza is now being held hostage for the prisoners taken at the weekend. I mean, the Israeli Ambassador to the UK was saying it was okay to withhold water/food from innocent civilians to 'punish' Hamas or something (this video around 8:10 (705) Iain Dale was joined by Israeli Ambassador to the UK Tzipi Hotovely | Watch Live - YouTube - her 'justifications' are honestly pathetic and objectively untrue, I really hope no one believes that rubbish), and you have multiple Israeli ministers calling the Palestinians 'animals' (New deputy defense minister called Palestinians 'animals' | The Times of Israel, Israel-Palestine war: 'We are fighting human animals', Israeli defence minister says | Middle East Eye), calls for 'another Nakba' (Israeli Knesset member calls for second ‘Nakba’ amid ongoing conflict with Hamas | Al Arabiya English) and so on, plus what this lady, a former Minister for Justice(!) said: Quote “Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there. They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists.” Israeli lawmaker's 'kill all Palestinians' remarks resurface | Daily Sabah I am sad but not surprised something like this is happening. It is a blatant violation of international law and human rights. Of course, that hasn't stopped the Israeli government before, so why should it now? 1 hour ago, Werthead said: The people who ordered the trigger to be pulled will not be inconvenienced at all, and will have tens of thousands of fresh volunteers as a result. Yes, this will bolster Hamas support. Exactly what they want, most likely. Edited October 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches dbergkvist and Many-Faced Votary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Also, where is the logic in bombing the refugee camps where all the people who were told to leave the city went? I am aware that Hamas hides among civilian populations. But it is clear that telling people to leave achieves nothing because nowhere is safe for them. Quote The Israeli military bombarded a residential building in the densely populated Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza, killing at least 45 people and wounding dozens of others. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-war-live-gaza-faces-growing-humanitarian-catastrophe Many-Faced Votary and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Werthead said: Frankly, Israeli agents taking out the Hamas leadership wherever they are A lot of dead hostages if they do that at this juncture. Humanitarian aid can enter Gaza once the hostages are freed. That seems like the ball is firmly in Hamas's court, to my mind. Edited October 12, 2023 by Ran Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 7 minutes ago, Ran said: Humanitarian aid can enter Gaza once the hostages are freed. That seems like the ball is firmly in Hamas's court, to my mind. This is absolutely, unequivocally a war crime on the part of Israel. I mean that’s obvious right? You’re ok with that? Hamas taking civilian hostages (and threatening to kill military prisoners) is also a war crime but that’s in no way a justification for Israel. Relic, Crixus, Craving Peaches and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ran said: A lot of dead hostages if they do that at this juncture. Humanitarian aid can enter Gaza once the hostages are freed. That seems like the ball is firmly in Hamas's court, to my mind. Uhm, Israel is the one cutting off basic aid to innocent people here. The ball is in their court and has been for decades. They control what goes in and out of Gaza, not the people of Gaza. Gaza has been blockaded for years, which is why the vast majority of people there are dependent on the now blocked foreign aid. Israel is making sure to bomb the border with Egypt as well so nothing and no one can cross. It is open on the Egyptian side. And to bomb fishing boats. Edited October 12, 2023 by Craving Peaches dbergkvist, Crixus and Many-Faced Votary 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Yeah, collective punishment is something we condemn when dictators like Assad or Putin do it. We can’t look at it here and say it’s an acceptable response. Massacres don’t justify massacres and war crimes don’t justify war crimes. cock_merchant, Many-Faced Votary, Craving Peaches and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/oct/12/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-biden-hamas-attack-holocaust-gaza-displaced-palestine Supplies supposedly very low... dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, ljkeane said: This is absolutely, unequivocally a war crime on the part of Israel. I mean that’s obvious right? You’re ok with that? Hamas taking civilian hostages (and threatening to kill military prisoners) is also a war crime but that’s in no way a justification for Israel. This. I mean, there is no question that HAMAS is a terrorist organisation, and a nasty one at that. That said, it’s not like Netanyahu isn’t a vile individual who bears a lot of responsibility for what is happening now. Like, for instance, strengthening HAMAS to weaken the PA, all to avoid the building of a Palestinian state. The whole world is so broken. Craving Peaches, Kal-L, Many-Faced Votary and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ljkeane said: This is absolutely, unequivocally a war crime on the part of Israel. The relevant portion of the Geneva Convention is Protocol I, and Israel is not signatory to that protocol. Neither is Hamas. For that matter, the "siege" is from Israel's side alone. Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005, and probably bears no legal responsibility to actually give Gaza supplies during hostilities. Egypt, OTOH, can send aid, and is in talks with the US and others to provide that aid. Edited October 12, 2023 by Ran Jace, Extat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ran said: The relevant portion of the Geneva Convention is Protocol I, and Israel is not signatory to that protocol. Neither is Hamas. A rose by any other name? Both are still committing war crimes imo. Craving Peaches, Crixus, dbergkvist and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljkeane Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Just now, Ran said: The relevant portion of the Geneva Convention is Protocol I, and Israel is not signatory to that protocol. Neither is Hamas. Actually it’s Geneva Convention IV which Israel is a signatory to. Also the Geneva Conventions as a whole have been adopted as customary law so it no longer matters if they’re a signatory or not. More the point, come on that’s some disingenuous hand waving bullshit you’re engaging in. Of course cutting off food and water to a civilian population is a war crime, let alone using it as a tactic for collective punishment. Are you actually trying to say it shouldn’t be? Crixus, dbergkvist, Zorral and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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