Israel - Hamas War IV

[Spockydog]

Oh yay, oh yay, oh yay. People of Gaza. Rise up against your true enemy, and seize control of your destiny. 

And once you've done that, expect more of the same from your oppressors. 

[JoannaL]

2 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I think most of the world percieves Israel to be the last white European colony. 

I do think only part of the left sees it this way, and it is also untrue. Because only approx 30 % Isrealis are of European descent and  because there is no jewish European motherland, of which Israel is a colony. On the contrary, also in  Europe the Jews were always a persecuted minority.

[Tywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I think most of the world percieves Israel to be the last white European colony. 

White supremacists and neo-Nazis sure don't think they're white. Come on dude... this is not a helpful comment. 

[Spockydog]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

White supremacists and neo-Nazis sure don't think they're white. Come on dude... this is not a helpful comment. 

Alright, let's remove the word 'white.' But it's definitely a European colony. 

Having said that, Israel was most definitely created by a bunch of white, Christian Zionists. With a deeply religious, bible based agenda. I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Spockydog

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

Alright, let's remove the word 'white.' But it's definitely a European colony. 

Is it though? Israel is the Jewish historic homeland, and they didn't leave in mass by choice. They were forced out through violence. 

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Is it an untrue statement, however? 

To me, the argument that Gazans have and have never had agency is the truly patronizing one. We all make choices.

 

You realize that a lot of this rhetoric about "agency" was used to demonize people of color, especially African Americans, for their poor conditions and inequalities, right? 

Through your own agency you can go from a pauper to a billionaire. Of course, reality is often stacked against the poor and people rarely leave their socio-economic bracket. So the idea of "agency" is not as cut and dried or naively simplistic as a basic function of whether or not we have agency. Just because someone has agency doesn't mean that it's easy especially when Israel stacks the deck against Palestinians and the opportunities that they are afforded in their lives. 

[Spockydog]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

Is it though? Israel is the Jewish historic homeland, and they didn't leave in mass by choice. They were forced out through violence. 

When was that again? Remind me. 

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I think most of the world percieves Israel to be the last white European colony. 

They may.  But that is simple ignorance upon their part.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

55 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’d be terrified, frankly, to take on Hamas, if I lived under their rule.

Yeah, but all you have to do is rise up and send Hamas a strongly worded letter and they will go away. 

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

You realize that a lot of this rhetoric about "agency" was used to demonize people of color, especially African Americans, for their poor conditions and inequalities, right? 

What other people choose to think about it has no relevance to what I think about it.

We can all cite the history of people who resisted, one way or another, without saying that those who didn't didn't have their reasons. I've pointed to the fact that the people of Gaza have protested Hamas's rule before, and sometimes paid the ultimate price for it. It seems strange to me to then pretend that now there's no one who'll dare challenge them, for .... I don't know what reasons. 

I mean, obviously, if the thought behind the objection is that, actually, the vast majority of people in Gaza were entirely in favor of what Hamas did on October 7th, and so how can I expect them to disavow them now, then okay. But I don't think that's the case. I think a lot of Gazans will see what was done in their name and feel badly about it. That may not help them speak out, I don't know, but maybe some will. Or some won't. Who knows.

 

7 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

Yeah, but all you have to do is rise up and send Hamas a strongly worded letter and they will go away. 

There are Palestinians using fucking rocks and slings against the IDF in the West Bank, who are getting shot and seriously injured or killed today, but sure, just pretend that all anyone in Gaza can do about Hamas dragging them into a war is a "strongly worded letter".

And again, if you go back to where all this started, my point remains that no matter how you approach Hamas, innocents will die. But Hamas does indeed have to go. They have moved beyond containment and are pursuing genocide, and dragging 1 million+ children into it with them. Once they're out of power, hopefully some sanity will reign.

 

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Call on the people of Gaza to rise up and throw out Hamas.

Hey the people had risien up against Bibiandcorruptcronies, and they, who are far better off, have more room and access to sympathetic media -- they failed at that. So why in hell do you expect the far poorer and far younger Palestiniaan population, at least half under 16, who essentially are locked in a prison camp, to do so? Preposterous demand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a different rally-protest than that of Monday -- but both were bilateral, asking for a ceasefire.  This second one, inside the Capitol, where protests, etc. are prohibited, may be what prompted MTG to call them insurrectionists. I didn't even know about the one yesterday until now.

About 300 protesters pleading for a cease-fire were arrested on Capitol Hill, organizers say.
Rallies over the Israel-Hamas war have continued to be held across the country and in world capitals

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/protest-israel-hamas-ceasefire-congress.html

Quote

 

Hundreds of demonstrators descended on a congressional building in Washington on Wednesday afternoon to demand a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war, resulting in an estimated 300 arrests and restricting access to Capitol Hill.

The rally was organized by two progressive Jewish groups, Jewish Voice for Peace and IfNotNow, and about 400 of their members assembled inside the rotunda of the Cannon House Office Building, led by about 25 rabbis reading testimonials from Palestinians in Gaza and reciting prayers. Outside, hundreds more chanted, “Cease-fire now” and sang in Hebrew and English.

Demonstrations are not permitted in congressional buildings. About 300 protesters were arrested, organizers estimated, though the Capitol Police would not comment on the number beyond saying on the social media platform X that three were charged with assault on a police officer. Protesters were restrained with zip ties and led into police vans. ....

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

White supremacists and neo-Nazis sure don't think they're white. Come on dude... this is not a helpful comment. 

Eh their definition of who is white is relative.

[Ran]

Just now, Zorral said:

Hey the people had risien up against Bibiandcorruptcronies, and they, who are far better off, have more room and access to sympathetic media -- they failed at that.

A democratically elected government, however abbhorent, represents the will of some plurality of the population and should be contested within the bounds of the democratic process.

Are you suggesting that Hamas, which has not held an election in 17 years, and which in fact violently forced Fatah out of Gaza,  is morally equivalent to the present government of Israel?

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Has there been any in-depth analysis on how Hamas managed to breech border security so overwhelming on the day of the attack?

Yes, and I provided links to them.

[fionwe1987]

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think the world, US included, would rightly condemn Israel if its government proposed seizing the West Bank and Gaza permanently, annexing it to form Greater Israel, expelling the Palestinians from all that land while they were at it, and setting up a Jewish theocracy.

Rightly condemn away. That is not what I asked. Is Israel's statehood dependent on these positions being held by no one who can come to power?

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

Even Likud doesn't go that far. There's a minor fringe party, Otzma Yehudit, that is basically espousing that position (read about Kahanism), and they have a ministry or two in the government (and are a part of why the unrest in the West Bank is increasing), but that's parliamentary political systems for you. But they are, again, a minor party.

And they're a fringe minor party in a functioning democracy. But if I had used the existence of such people to deny all Israelis a country or the right to determine their lives, I think you'd correctly object. Why is this not true of Gazans?

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think, again, it's a very small ask of the people of Gaza to want a government that does not lay claim to all Israel in its charters. Regardless, Hamas needs to go, even if the people of Gaza would prefer it. Israel and Hamas cannot work together, and Israel certainly isn't going anywhere.

A small ask of the people of Gaza that they overthrow their heavily armed oppressors who were supported and financially strengthened by a government that has now turned around and asked these Gazans to flee their homes and face death in their thousands?

Why? Why the fuck would Gazans do anything like that? I can't name a single people who will do such a thing in this context, and in fact, if they did, most anti-colonial movements of the past 100 or so years would have fizzled out. 

You're demand of selfless magnanimity in the face of no guarantees for future freedoms from the Gazans, who are losing their homes and thousands of their people's, while simultaneously saying that Israel has little choice but to be violent and clean out Hamas, and yes, there is sadness for the dead civilians, but what can you do?

Can you explain or clarify this? Why, essentially, must Gazans display more restraint and magnanimity with no guarantees of statehood, than Israelis who are nowhere close to losing their state?

Edited October 19, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Zorral]

Just now, Ran said:

A democratically elected government, however abbhorent, represents the will of some plurality of the population and should be contested within the bounds of the democratic process.

Are you suggesting that Hamas, which has not held an election in 17 years, and which in fact violently forced Fatah out of Gaza,  is morally equivalent to the present government of Israel?

 

I am saying the populations and their conditions are entirely different.  It would take force to get Hamas out.  I do not expect infants, women, and 8 year old children, who are over half the population -- if your numbers of who may be Hamas are correct.

https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/the-hamas-terrorist-organization/the-status-of-women-in-gaza/

That Bibi/Likud Israel is attempting to reduce women's status and access is one of the reasons hundreds of thousands Israelis have been protesting them.  They have elections -- and they haven't mattered.

Just as here in the US where the fascists have taken over the states -- what we the people and voters want and demand are ignored.  Particularly anything to do with women and African Americans.

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

But if I had used the existence of such people to deny all Israelis a country or the right to determine their lives, I think you'd correctly object. Why is this not true of Gazans?

Hamas is not a fringe minority party. They are the governing power of Gaza.

8 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

A small ask of the people of Gaza

My point there is about the future, after Hamas, not at the present. As I said earlier in the thread, I am not suggesting Israel should impose some puppet regime, or insist that the only parties that can be considered are those "amendable" to Israel  -- the people of Gaza should choose freely, and will almost certainly choose a religious-based party, and probably one very unhappy with Israel and the situation, and rightly so.

But if they choose a jihadist party that denies the right of Israel to exist, like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, we are back to square one.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Relic]

8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Yes, and I provided links to them.

Would you kindly do so again?

[Zorral]

34 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think the world, US included, would rightly condemn Israel if its government proposed seizing the West Bank and Gaza permanently, annexing it to form Greater Israel, expelling the Palestinians from all that land while they were at it, and setting up a Jewish theocracy.

What exactly do you think those Israeli settlements on the West Bank are, for pete's sake.  Another thing that the Bibilikud corrupt jerkwaddies have been facilitating and which the hundreds of thousands Israeli protesters to it have been protesting!

You keep ignoring basic facts of the matter that have been festering for years.  Which, again, is why hundreds of thousands of Israelis protest -- and yet they haven't been able to change it, even with their elections in which Bibi essentially LOST.

And again, Palestinian women and babies are unarmed, and do not vote.

 

[Spockydog]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They may.  But that is simple ignorance upon their part.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc....