Israel - Hamas War VI

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

where does it stop? 

Hamas is defeated and dislodged from power in Gaza appears to be the present aim, per the Prime Minister. 

Israel could just start dropping nothing but unguided munitions and save money on JDAMs if their goal was killing all the population of Gaza.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Hamas is defeated and dislodged from power in Gaza appears to be the present aim, per the Prime Minister. 

Which per the same sources is not obtainable militarily. Nor is it clear it has to be done at the pace it is being done.

I'll continue repeating my framing from before: are Israel's actions effective at meeting their goals? Killing Hamas troops and officials can be done in a variety of ways, getting rid of Hamas as a political entity can be done in even more. Israel is choosing to lean very heavily on military options, and specifically doing heavy air assaults. 

Is that working? And is it worth the civilian damage, the political damage, the risk of escalation in the area, the long term ability to effect political goals?

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Israel could just start dropping nothing but unguided munitions and save money on JDAMs if their goal was killing all the population of Gaza.

Not without starting a regional war with significantly more risk to the state of Israel. I mean you could say the same thing about Russia and Ukraine and it would be equally wrong. Israel has the capability of mass destruction, but not the ability to do so without consequence. 

Right now Israel is able to do what they're doing without consequence, maybe, but they're probably pretty close to the line. And the more they kill families of press that are in refugee camps the more likely it is they cross that line.

[Ran]

 

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Which per the same sources is not obtainable militarily.

The Prime Minister is saying it's impossible to do?

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

getting rid of Hamas as a political entity can be done in even more.

I am dubious, given the fact that they 100% control Gaza and are armed to the teeth. No counter-balancing non-military power will arise in Gaza, even with external support, so long as they are given uncontested control. And the idea of basically encouraging some other militant group to go toe-to-toe with Hamas in Gaza just seems like "Welcome to the new boss, same as the old boss."

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The Prime Minister is saying it's impossible to do?

The Israeli government has been reporting this regularly to the press, yes. I don't know if the prime minister themselves has said that, but either we need to treat every spokesperson for Israel as a representative of Israel or we need to treat them entirely separately and assume there is no consensus on anything. 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I am dubious, given the fact that they 100% control Gaza and are armed to the teeth.

For now, sure. Given that Israel has done absolutely nothing to actively oppose Hamas control in Gaza for 15 years that is to be expected. But that doesn't mean it can't exist. 

Also, aren't you the one saying that Palestinians can rise up with rocks to oppose more armed people? If that's your statement I don't see why this would make you dubious. 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

No counter-balancing non-military power will arise in Gaza, even with external support, so long as they are given uncontested control.

So...you don't think internal protest will work then?

1 hour ago, Ran said:

And the idea of basically encouraging some other militant group to go toe-to-toe with Hamas in Gaza just seems like "Welcome to the new boss, same as the old boss."

Depends on the group, honestly. If Fatah or the PLA were encouraged to take over and fight Hamas again and actually given resources to do so things may end up quite differently. Not necessarily better, mind you, but Hamas took power with the promises of democratic and economic improvements and then kicked everyone else out. That's not what Palestinians want in general, and it's not what Fatah says they want either. 

What it will do, however, is take time, and I think here is where we run into the problems with the current Israeli government. Netanyahu has to appear like he's tough and doing a great deal to save his own ass. That does not mean it's a particularly good outcome or will be the right course of action for Israel in the long term or even medium term. I think it's important to recognize this - that the actions that Israel is taking are not what every country would do in this circumstance, that it is more severe than most other nations are comfortable with, that it's not clear that it will do well to meet Israeli goals of safety and security or even removal of Hamas as force in the area, and that there are other options. Those options, however, are not particularly useful for Netanyahu. 

[GrimTuesday]

The indifference towards Palestinian lives is so fucking gross. The world was rightly disgusted and outraged at the murder of innocent Israelis, but the reality is that Israel has long since bypassed a proportional response. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying that Israel said it was Hamas infrastructure and therefore is ok is being complicate in genocide. One day, when it's safe, when there's no personal downside to calling a thing what it is, when it's too late to hold anyone accountable, everyone will have always been against this.

[Ran]

Seen no evidence that the IDF or the cabinet has said they can't defeat Hamas. Links? I've certainly seen other parties question it, and maybe voices in Israel and the opposition, but if the Israeli government itself is saying it's  not intending to remove Hamas from power, despite various ministers and officers saying so, besides talks involving the US regarding an interim government for Gaza, etc. that would be a surprise to me.

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, aren't you the one saying that Palestinians can rise up with rocks to oppose more armed people?

Not what I said. I said that people of Gaza might themselves hopefully apply pressure to Hamas to end this destructive war that they started.

But my whole point is that if Hamas is on the back foot, is now wounded, is in a position where it can be pushed out of power and an interim administration can be put in, that would certainly help the civil society of Gaza to found and form its own government without Hamas. But leaving them in power will make it very hard indeed for anything clean to happen.

I mean, if people really think an ugly civil war in Gaza is somehow better... Well, you know, you have a point, I guess if it's just the brown people killing each other, that's fine...

I guess I look forward to the Gazan Civil War edition where people are again demanding Israel allow in refugees and complaining that no one is stopping the evil deaths of innocents caught in the cross-fire between two factions, and finding yet again a way to blame others rather than the actual genocidal jihadists.

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

If Fatah or the PLA were encouraged to take over and fight Hamas again and actually given resources to do so things may end up quite differently.

Sadly, Fatah is useless and corrupt, and Abbas is turning 88 this year and seems uninterested in relinquishing power any time soon until the Grim Reaper speaks. I've no trust in Fatah, and polling showed that most people of Gaza didn't feel confident about it.

Personally, I think the polling shows that there's enough separation of political views between Gaza and the West Bank that the Gazans themselves should field their own governance.

@GrimTuesday

Hamas is responsible for every death caused by its manufacture, storage, and use of rockets, in Israel and in Gaza alike.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Ran

[TrueMetis]

While the violence is escalating in Gaza, so too is it escalating in the West Bank

(Content warning about some of the videos in there)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/as-gaza-violence-grows-a-different-kind-of-conflict-is-emerging-on-the-west-bank/ar-AA1iBVsX

Between concerns that settlers will use the attack as an excuse to steal more land, the Israeli foreign minister stating that Gaza will be smaller after they're done, and the stories about Israel having been warned about the attack beforehand it leads to some questions about how happy some in the Israeli government might be to have an excuse to continue their colonial project.

Edited October 26, 2023 by TrueMetis

[Ran]

The West Bank situation has been and remains deplorable, and is a big reason I hope that the aftermath of this conflict includes a loss for all the coalition government parties and a chance for the opposition to do things differently. And maybe Netanyahu will finally end up in jail for his corruption.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

 

@GrimTuesday

Hamas is responsible for every death caused by its manufacture, storage, and use of rockets, in Israel and in Gaza alike.

The mental gymnastics required to reach this conclusion are beyond my pedestrian intellect. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

27 minutes ago, Relic said:

The mental gymnastics required to reach this conclusion are beyond my pedestrian intellect. 

Not exactly. Hamas committed a terrorist attack with the hopes that Israel would attack back (which again almost any nation would). They did so knowing they were going to use their own citizens as cannon fodder for their political aims. Israel doesn't get a pass on a number of their actions, but Hamas absolutely wants a lot of their citizens to die and do bear the overall responsibility for what's going on. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

The Ministry of Health in Gaza says it has decided to release the names of at least 7,000 Palestinians who have been killed in Israeli air strikes so “the entire world knows the truth about the genocidal war that the occupation is committing against our people”.

The myth of Israel’s ‘most moral army’ | Israel-Palestine conflict | Al Jazeera

If they have their names, then unless they are making up fake people, how would they be inflating the numbers? Am I missing something?

[Zorral]

Israelis, families of the hostages, came to D.C. today to beg everyone to pressure Israel to focus on the hostages, not on murdering and bombing, begging to pressure Israel to let aid in.

[fionwe1987]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

The Prime Minister is saying it's impossible to do?

The current Prime Minister of Israel has credibility on how to defeat Hamas, or if it is possible? 

1 hour ago, Relic said:

The mental gymnastics required to reach this conclusion are beyond my pedestrian intellect. 

I do not think it is your intellect that is blocking you. You just lack the ability to forget the Palestinian people are people too. You lack the ability to declare with a straight face that somehow this is all normal warfare. 

Good on you. 

[Craving Peaches]

The implication that we should just accept all the dead civilians as just Hamas' fault or unfortunate unavoidable collateral damage is getting very wearisome and is insulting at this point.

[fionwe1987]

The only world where this kind of civilian death can be met with a shrug and a "what can you do, it's war" is one where Palestinians lives are worth less than Israeli lives. Significantly less.

I refuse to live in that world. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Who is shrugging? Who is saying just accept all civilian deaths? 

[Bael's Bastard]

Well said by Magdi Khalil

https://www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-american-analyst-khalil-hamas-isis-gaza-human-shields

[fionwe1987]

34 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Who is shrugging? Who is saying just accept all civilian deaths? 

You? If you ask "what other choice is there", you are saying this is a legitimate choice. Whatever you think about the feasibility of other choices, that doesn't change that this choice is wrong. 

On top of that, you're saying "Hamas wanted this, therefore it is Hamas's fault". Is Israel in the business of giving Hamas what it wants? If so, why? Why give Hamas what it wants in the name of destroying Hamas? And if Israel is giving Hamas what it apparently wants, then it is acting as Hamas's agent in causing mass death and terror, and deserves no sympathy.

Edited October 27, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

You? If you ask "what other choice is there", you are saying this is a legitimate choice. Whatever you think about the feasibility of other choices, that doesn't change that this choice is wrong. 

So what other choice is there? Do nothing after the worst attack on your country in its history? Negotiate without fighting back? Please, that's not how this works. 

Quote

On top of that, you're saying "Hamas wanted this, therefore it is Hamas's fault". Is Israel in the business of giving Hamas what it wants? If so, why? Why give Hamas what it wants in the name of destroying Hamas? And if Israel is giving Hamas what it apparently wants, then it is acting as Hamas's agent in causing mass death and terror, and deserves no sympathy.

No sympathy huh? My guess is you wouldn't give them much regardless of how they responded. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Hamas found the sweet spot to win over phoney progressives and it is murdering behind human shields. They used to wear suicide vests when they murder Jews, now they wear Gaza.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Bael's Bastard