How much does Shadrich know?

[James Steller]

Does he know that Alayne Stone is Sansa? His comment in her TWOW chapter could be dramatic irony or some foreshadowing to the reader. I still haven’t figured it out yet.

[Nevets]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Does he know that Alayne Stone is Sansa? His comment in her TWOW chapter could be dramatic irony or some foreshadowing to the reader. I still haven’t figured it out yet.

Nobody else has figured it out yet, either, if they're being honest.  I think Martin left it that way on purpose; so we would wonder.

I think he's a red herring.  He's there because of of Baelish's job offer.  Storywise, I think he's there to distract us; make us think he's a threat to Sansa while the real threat goes unnoticed.  But I could very easily be wrong.  One thing I am convinced of is that he is not Howland Reed, or anyone else, in disguise.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Nobody else has figured it out yet, either, if they're being honest.  I think Martin left it that way on purpose; so we would wonder.

It's quite frustrating that Brienne spends the entirety of AFFC looking for Sansa to no avail, while Shadrich finds her pretty much right away. Maybe that's intentional too.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Northern Sword]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Does he know that Alayne Stone is Sansa? His comment in her TWOW chapter could be dramatic irony or some foreshadowing to the reader. I still haven’t figured it out yet.

I don't remember who posted something like this. But a while ago I followed a link to a set of essays on a variety of subjects, one of them being Shadrich's identity. I thought it was far fetched at first, but the idea was Shadrich was actually Howland Reed, the case the author made was compelling.  It was a great Reed  . Unfortunately, I don't remember the author, but the site was Mythological Weave of Ice and Fire I believe. Lots of fun stuff to read there.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

1 hour ago, Northern Sword said:

I don't remember who posted something like this. But a while ago I followed a link to a set of essays on a variety of subjects, one of them being Shadrich's identity. I thought it was far fetched at first, but the idea was Shadrich was actually Howland Reed, the case the author made was compelling.  It was a great Reed  . Unfortunately, I don't remember the author, but the site was Mythological Weave of Ice and Fire I believe. Lots of fun stuff to read there.

It's this one, by Blue Eyed Wolf:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

Edited October 26, 2023 by Phylum of Alexandria

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Shadrich doesn't know anything. He's the ignorant buffoon who we get to laugh at.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

10 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It's quite frustrating that Brienne spends the entirety of AFFC looking for Sansa to no avail, while Shadrich finds her pretty much right away. Maybe that's intentional too.

I think Shadrich just got lucky. But also Brienne was planning to go to the Eyrie then changed her mind because of Dick Crabb. Given a random toss of the dice, she might have discovered Sansa instead. I assume Baelish would have let her up to the Eyrie, and I could see Brienne....direct and not good at hiding secrets person that she is....immedietely being like "Lady Sansa" when Sansa walks in. Hmmm, to me Brienne's story in AFfC is about teh journey not the destination. Her chapters are some of my favorites and I think most strongly drive home a lot of GRRM's .....ideals? more than any other chapters. Although Arya's chapters do shed light on the small folk during the second and third book, I think Brienne's chapters are more raw and in your face about it. 

[Sandy Clegg]

Shadrich has managed to succeed where Brienne has failed, by getting as close as possible to their intended mutual target: Sansa. That alone makes him an interesting character who will definitely have a big role to play.
 

Is he Reed? I go along with blue-eyed wolf’s analysis, mainly because I have no problem with the secret identity thing. It’s fantasy - and we already know GRRM loves this kind of plot detail. Moaning about them is not just pointless but kind of elitist now. “I insist that my fantasy fiction be purely realistic, thank you very much.” Enough already.

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think Shadrich just got lucky. But also Brienne was planning to go to the Eyrie then changed her mind because of Dick Crabb. Given a random toss of the dice, she might have discovered Sansa instead. I assume Baelish would have let her up to the Eyrie, and I could see Brienne....direct and not good at hiding secrets person that she is....immedietely being like "Lady Sansa" when Sansa walks in. Hmmm, to me Brienne's story in AFfC is about teh journey not the destination. Her chapters are some of my favorites and I think most strongly drive home a lot of GRRM's .....ideals? more than any other chapters. Although Arya's chapters do shed light on the small folk during the second and third book, I think Brienne's chapters are more raw and in your face about it. 

Brienne's not that careless.  Remember, she was careful enough not to use Sansa's name while searching for her.  So I doubt she would make it obvious she knows who she is.

And if she does figure out Sansa is with Baelish at the Eyrie, she could decide Sansa is safe where she is.  She's well hidden there, and Baelish is her uncle by marriage and guardian to her cousin.  

I still think she still might end up with Sansa in the Vale.  Martin did, after all, give her a companion who knows Sansa.  Of course, Baelish also knows Podrick, so it could get tricky.

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Is he Reed? I go along with blue-eyed wolf’s analysis, mainly because I have no problem with the secret identity thing. It’s fantasy - and we already know GRRM loves this kind of plot detail. Moaning about them is not just pointless but kind of elitist now. “I insist that my fantasy fiction be purely realistic, thank you very much.” Enough already.

I don't think that's fair. 

The problem with too many secret identities has nothing to do with realism: rather, it's just bad writing. After a while it's basically just gaslighting your readers, only so you can go "aha, fooled you!" for a temporary shock down the line. Too many secret identities, and the whole thing becomes farcical: indeed, there are farces with essentially that premise, and the "let's see who you really are!" trope is a staple of formulaic children's cartoons and parodies of formulaic children cartoons. I like to think that GRRM is better than that. 

Not to mention it also increases the burden on the reader. In David Eddings's Tamuli trilogy, for instance, there's a section at the start of what if I remember rightly was the third book where the majority of the main cast go undercover, assuming secret identities, in order to take on an opposing spy ring. At a stroke, the number of named characters we have to keep track of is dramatically increased, and what should be an entertaining bit of derring-do is actually something of a chore. And that's with a much smaller cast than ASoIaF has.

Now, to be fair, most secret identity theories only feature one or two. And a couple of further such reveals over the course of the story is perfectly reasonable, especially when it comes to major absentee figures like Howland Reed who we're expecting to turn up at some point. But not every plot point can be resolved with one, and some of the kookier theories out there seem to involve large swathes of characters all being someone other than who we think they are, which would just be rubbish storytelling irrespective of genre. 

[Sandy Clegg]

15 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

it's just bad writing.

That's totally subjective as well. I think if GRRM wants to pursue secret identities he's free to do so and I'm sure he'll make it all work, as he's done with everything so far. Some think having all four hobbits survive to the end of LOTR might be 'bad writing'. Pretty unrealistic to have them all survive those bloody battles, right? These things are just stylistic preferences with no basis in theory. 

20 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

some of the kookier theories out there seem to involve large swathes of characters all being someone other than who we think they are, which would just be rubbish storytelling irrespective of genre. 

Shadrich is one character. We should argue each one on its merits, not make sweeping emotive statements.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, James Steller said:

Does he know that Alayne Stone is Sansa? His comment in her TWOW chapter could be dramatic irony or some foreshadowing to the reader. I still haven’t figured it out yet.

Everybody knows that the Alayne story is a lie. She is too old. Whether or not anyone has puzzled out that she is Sansa Stark is another matter. Randa Royce probably has, but it's unclear if she has told anyone, least of all Ser Shadrich.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I think more people suspect she is Sansa than we realize. The problem is, we only get Sansa's POV so we don't know who may or may not suspect the truth. We don't know if all of them are working together or if they each have their own motives. And that's just another reason for Sansa to be wary of her identity being revealed. She doesn't know who she can trust, so she feels safer remaining as Alayne for now. But I think it's safe to say that there are people there who suspect the truth, but they're being cautious since they know who they're dealing with (LF).

Personally, I like the Shadrich = Howland theory. I think it's a real possibility, and it would be the first time since her father's death that someone would be looking out for Sansa with honorable intentions. No scheming, no using her for personal gain, etc. Her storyline has been filled with her being passed around from one ambitious prick to another, so I think Shadrick just being Shadrick would be old storytelling for her arc. We've been there and done that with her over and over again.

[Northern Sword]

20 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

It's this one, by Blue Eyed Wolf:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

Yep that is it. With so long of a time between books. It was good to read fresh takes and some in depth analysis. Didn't necessarily agree with it all.. still good though.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Shadrich doesn't know anything. He's the ignorant buffoon who we get to laugh at.

Where is Ygritte when you need her.

[Nevets]

15 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

That's totally subjective as well. I think if GRRM wants to pursue secret identities he's free to do so and I'm sure he'll make it all work, as he's done with everything so far. Some think having all four hobbits survive to the end of LOTR might be 'bad writing'. Pretty unrealistic to have them all survive those bloody battles, right? These things are just stylistic preferences with no basis in theory. 

Shadrich is one character. We should argue each one on its merits, not make sweeping emotive statements.

Even on its own merits, it's a lousy theory.  First, there is nothing that specifically points to Howland.  We have no matching description, which is how most secret identities have been sussed out, nor does he have specific knowledge or is in a particularly significant location.

Second, what we do know doesn't match either.  He has no reason to be on the road between Kings Landing and Duskendale.  What was he doing in KL?  Sitting on his ass?  Why is he with the cheap merchant.  

Most importantly, why doesn't he make any effort to discover Brienne's motives.  She's well equipped, can probably handle herself in a fight, and is female.  And if she's interested in helping Sansa, why chase her off?  Telling her he is seeking a reward and offering to share is stupid.  If she accepts, you have an inconvenient companion you need to shake off.  Or you chase off a potential useful ally.

And why would he expect Sansa to trust him anyway, especially as she would appear to be safe, hidden away with family as protectors (Baelish is now her uncle, along with her cousin Robert.  If Howland is pretending to be someone else, my money would be on the Hooded Man in Winterfell.  But I don't think he's that either.

[sweetsunray]

On 10/26/2023 at 8:08 PM, Northern Sword said:

I don't remember who posted something like this. But a while ago I followed a link to a set of essays on a variety of subjects, one of them being Shadrich's identity. I thought it was far fetched at first, but the idea was Shadrich was actually Howland Reed, the case the author made was compelling.  It was a great Reed  . Unfortunately, I don't remember the author, but the site was Mythological Weave of Ice and Fire I believe. Lots of fun stuff to read there.

It's my blog, but the essay on Shadrich's identity (and Byron's, etc) was written by BlueEyedWolf, a guest author, because I challenged her here on the forum to write her ideas into an essay when she was developing them in a thread about Shadrich by @bemused. BlueEyedWolf now goes by the name of Blue Lemons (@LemonyBlues) and co-hosts the Silent Sisters podcast (@sisterssilent). And she has a tumblr page: thebluelemontree.tumblr.com 

Edited October 28, 2023 by sweetsunray

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

First, there is nothing that specifically points to Howland.  We have no matching description, which is how most secret identities have been sussed out, nor does he have specific knowledge or is in a particularly significant location.

There is no matching description, because we have no description for HR in the first place, to either deny or confirm it. We do have Shadrich's short stature without being a dward, that is mentioned to make us think and a white-red eyed color theme for his shield that definitely is meant to remind us of the KotLT and Ghost. It may not be enough to convince you, but your statement above is a misrepresentation. 

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Second, what we do know doesn't match either.  He has no reason to be on the road between Kings Landing and Duskendale.  What was he doing in KL?  Sitting on his ass?  Why is he with the cheap merchant. 

You claim BlueEyedWolf's theory doesn't address this, when she does tackle these questions.

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Most importantly, why doesn't he make any effort to discover Brienne's motives.  She's well equipped, can probably handle herself in a fight, and is female.  And if she's interested in helping Sansa, why chase her off?  Telling her he is seeking a reward and offering to share is stupid.  If she accepts, you have an inconvenient companion you need to shake off.  Or you chase off a potential useful ally.

Also addressed by BlueEyedWolf's essay.

[Hippocras]

Another character I really don't know what to think of. Maybe some of the other chapters in Winds will make it so that there are a few more subtle hints to connect him. Right now, the main things we have to go on are his sigil, size, hair colour, and apparent lack of particular loyalty.

Varys's spy network is the primary mouse reference of the series. While most of Varys's mice are tongueless children, he may maintain a certain number of spies who can do more, to manage the information networks and to blend in more easily in places other than the secret passages of the Red Keep. If so, he may have been trying to feel out Brienne's intentions by pretending to be only interested in the gold Varys offered. As Varys has no loyalty to Cersei, his motive in this case would not be to help her but to help Varys's cause. Which means Aegon in the Stormlands.

Another possibility I have considered is that he may be Anguy. Hair colour and physical description fit reasonably well. The age doesn't seem to match, though living rough with the BwB for several years might have aged Anguy. If so, he is spying for the branch of the BwB that is not following Stoneheart. They may have headed to the Vale to try to get a ship to the Stormlands and Dorne, since the ports of the Crownlands would be difficult for them.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Hippocras

[sweetsunray]

23 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

That's totally subjective as well. I think if GRRM wants to pursue secret identities he's free to do so and I'm sure he'll make it all work, as he's done with everything so far. Some think having all four hobbits survive to the end of LOTR might be 'bad writing'. Pretty unrealistic to have them all survive those bloody battles, right? These things are just stylistic preferences with no basis in theory. 

Shadrich is one character. We should argue each one on its merits, not make sweeping emotive statements.

Agreed. At the time BlueEyedWolf and Bemused proposed it, HR being in action somewhere was the dominant idea, and a lot of readers believed he was either the High Sparrow or the Hooded Man at Winterfell. It was also the time of identity proposals such as Euron = Daario. The multitude of utterly crazy identity proposals had gone through the roof and caused two responses:

• some readers have come to completely dislike any hidden identity proposal from the get go, often leaning on "it's bad writing" argument. I think most of us would agree it would be bad writing if HR = HS or Euron = Daario. So, I consider this argument more an expression of dislike of those type of identity theories
• other readers recognized that George either wittingly or unwittingly created a series with so many hidden identities (especially since aFfC) that he has conditioned his readers to question and wonder about identities of carachters he introduced. That even his editor adds comments in the transcripts about the Hooded Man or Coldhands is evidence of this reader phenomenon. Add the conspicuously missing HR who sent his two children to risk their lives, but he himself supposedly having done no more than floating around in the Neck and have his men shoot poisoned arrows at Ironborn at Moat Cailin, and then yes it is reasonable that readers wonder whether HR may have moved into action already somewhere in Westeros under our very noses, and in disguise. And if so, they searched for at least mo a more reasonable proposal than the High Sparrow. 

Personally, I have a hard time believing that HR is playing host to Maege and Glover and not being more proactive than having his men shoot poisoned arrows at Ironborn at Moat Cailin, while sending both of his children in such danger with Bran. He has been established to be an adventurous roaming type of character and is alluded to as someone who is resourceful and witty, and not necessarily following the code of honor as knights or wannabe knights would understand as honorable. So, a "fox" like personna could match. And Shadrich certainly has aspects that could be the answer. And I am not ready to dismiss the symbolism of the red eyed mouse, his shield, or his height.

On the other hand, Shadrich also has a crassness and cynicism that I find difficult to match with the HR I imagined in my mind. But the HR in my mind may be an almost mythical expectation or ideal that may very well be wrong. And then there is the carrot orange hair. Not so much a physical issue for me, but a symbolical one. It ties him to Merryweather and Merryweather is tied to the Varys-expat team. And if Shadrich's claim about having fought on Stannis' side on the Blackwater is true, then he may have been a Varys or Merryweather infiltrant early on in Stannis' camp. We know LF had an interest in Sansa early on since aGoT, but there should be no doubt that Varys would have had plans of his own already since aCoK. Mandon Moore and the riots when Tygett disappeared are suspect. Mandon Moore abandoned Sansa, and if not for Sandor, Sansa would have likely been "disappeared" during the riots, and Varys may have been behind that. And by the time Jaime sends Brienne in search for Sansa, Illyrio has come to the conclusion that it's time to send Aegon and JonCon to Volantis, to send the GC marching to Volantis, where he expects Dany and her army and dragons to show up, to sail for Westeros from there. It makes sense that Varys would wish to secure an actual Stark to yield the North to Aegon's claim.

Another issue for me is the "wizard" portrayal. While HR is indeed referred to as such by hs children, it is imo a poetic wordplay. Jojen is the true magical talent, but Meera is skilled in climbing and hunting and physical scouting. The way Jojen describes Meera's skills is the same as HR's skills are described. In other words, HR is no magician, but just physically skilled in the same way as Meera. I don't believe HR knows magical spells or could glamor someone. But perhaps the brother of the Quiet Isle can.

And Shadrich being recruited for team Varys may not necessarily even conflict with HR. If Taena Merryweather pretends to be a double spy for both Margaery as well as Cersei but in actuality is working for Varys, then certainly a cunning HR may pretend to serve both Varys and LF as far as either chaosmaster is aware, but in actuality work for team North.