Israel - Hamas War X

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think the point is that if the vast majority of Palestinian activists in Palestine were to reject Hamas and the more aggressive methods they advocat and adopt purely non-violent methods a la Dr. King, it would be difficult for the world to look away similar to what happened in Selma.

Then again, (thinking as I type) Selma could be seen as a unique moment and that without the cameras and the violence offered to protesters in Selma  no change may have occured.  People have, sadly, become inured to violence against peaceful protests.  So… maybe… I’m flat wrong.

I don’t know…

The world has looked away. Palestinians have tried this, repeatedly, and been killed mostly silently for it. 

Peaceful protest is not always the solution.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Kalbear said:

The world has looked away. Palestinians have tried this, repeatedly, and been killed mostly silently for it. 

Peaceful protest is not always the solution.

Yeah… that’s my second paragraph…

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Crixus said:

It also seems disingenuous to wonder WHY Palestinians may harbour such hatred - if you can look at forced mass expulsion and mass displacement, murder and inhumane treatment over the last 75 years 

Heads up, their hatred of Jews predates the establishment of Israel. The argument that the current hatred stems from that point is simply not accurate. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Heads up, their hatred of Jews predates the establishment of Israel. The argument that the current hatred stems from that point is simply not accurate. 

Maybe. But should that be the point now? Who started hating who when or who started hating the other first?  
To be honest, I don’t even believe that question can be answered at this point, though I’m sure I’ll be told I’m wrong because X started, or Y started. 
But the only possible way to a peaceful existence for both peoples is to try to work out solutions that would be acceptable for both, one baby step at a time. And I refuse to accept that there is no possible solution because that is simply ridiculous. Is it going to be quick and easy? Of course not, much the opposite in fact. Does that mean it shouldn’t even be attempted? Again, of course not. All that said, I think any path to a peaceful existence is now blocked by extremists on both sides.
 

“Non-violence for me is the art of being a human being. It’s the celebration of my existence.”

 

[Bael's Bastard]

29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Heads up, their hatred of Jews predates the establishment of Israel. The argument that the current hatred stems from that point is simply not accurate. 

Yeah, this is painting a bullseye around an arrow.

[Fragile Bird]

10 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Yeah, this is painting a bullseye around an arrow.

Nice phrase there!

[Zorral]

THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
The Most Revealing Moment From My Trip to Israel
Nov. 14, 2023

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/opinion/israel-war-biden.html

Quote

 

... As I was packing to leave last Saturday night, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave a news conference in which he indicated that Israel and the United States do not have a shared vision of how Israel should complete its war in Gaza or how to convert any Israeli victory over Hamas into a lasting peace with the Palestinians.

Without such a shared strategy, the Biden administration and the American people, particularly American Jews who support Israel, will need to make some fateful decisions.

We will have to either become captives of Netanyahu’s strategy — which could take us all down with him — or articulate an American vision for how the Gaza war must end. That would require a Biden administration plan to create two states for two indigenous peoples living in the areas of Gaza, the West Bank and Israel.

Yes, I am talking about a wartime peace plan that, if Israel agreed, could help give it the time, legitimacy, allies and resources it needs to defeat Hamas — without getting stuck governing all of Gaza and all of the West Bank forever, with no political horizon for the Palestinians.

And have no illusion, this is the only vision Netanyahu is offering right now: Seven million Jews trying to govern five million Palestinians in perpetuity — and that is a prescription for disaster for Israel, America, Jews everywhere and America’s moderate Arab allies. ....

.... This was an in-your-face rebuke of the Biden administration position articulated by Secretary of State Antony Blinken last Wednesday. As The Times reported, Blinken declared during a meeting of foreign ministers in Tokyo that Gaza should be unified with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority once the war is over. To retain America’s Arab and Western allies, Blinken said that right now — today — we must articulate “affirmative elements to get to a sustained peace.” And “these must include the Palestinian people’s voices and aspirations at the center of postcrisis governance in Gaza,” he said. “It must include Palestinian-led governance and Gaza unified with the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority.”

My four-word translation of Blinken’s proposal to Israel: “Help us help you.”

Blinken, though, also offered no details of how that might happen. The Biden team needs to flesh that out.

Why is Netanyahu trying to destroy the Palestinian Authority as a governing option for a postwar Gaza? Because he is already campaigning to hold on to power after the Gaza war is over, and he knows there will be a huge surge of Israelis demanding he step down because of how he and his far-right cronies distracted and divided Israel and its military by pursuing a judicial coup that Israeli intelligence sources told Netanyahu was emboldening and tempting enemies such as Hamas and Hezbollah.

The only way Netanyahu can stay in power is if his far-right allies don’t abandon him ...

 

 

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I think the point is that if the vast majority of Palestinian activists in Palestine were to reject Hamas and the more aggressive methods they advocat and adopt purely non-violent methods a la Dr. King, it would be difficult for the world to look away similar to what happened in Selma.

Then again, (thinking as I type) Selma could be seen as a unique moment and that without the cameras and the violence offered to protesters in Selma  no change may have occured.  People have, sadly, become inured to violence against peaceful protests.  So… maybe… I’m flat wrong.

I don’t know…

You're not wrong in that second paragraph, in that it is tempting to see Dr. King's success as an inevitable consequence of his tactics, simply because it was a success. We tend to ignore those others who have tried the same tactics and been ruthlessly crushed. They're numerous, though. And so it would be wrong to talk as if Palestinians have never tried this approach, simply because you haven't heard of them doing so. 

[Altherion]

20 minutes ago, Zorral said:

THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
The Most Revealing Moment From My Trip to Israel
Nov. 14, 2023

I don't think it makes sense to make any long-term plans with Netanyahu -- he seems to be acting as though he can avoid blame for the October 7th attack, but it's very hard to see how that happens given that at least half of the country already hated him beforehand. His government will almost certainly be gone after the war ends.

That said, a lasting peace is almost certainly not happening regardless of which vision they try to implement. Biden and Blinken don't have any details because they don't know how to do it -- no one does. They're just making diplomatic noises to appease the largest number of countries possible and Netanyahu is making a different set of noises because his constituency is very angry right now.

[Luzifer's right hand]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe. But should that be the point now? Who started hating who when or who started hating the other first?  
To be honest, I don’t even believe that question can be answered at this point, though I’m sure I’ll be told I’m wrong because X started, or Y started. 
But the only possible way to a peaceful existence for both peoples is to try to work out solutions that would be acceptable for both, one baby step at a time. And I refuse to accept that there is no possible solution because that is simply ridiculous. Is it going to be quick and easy? Of course not, much the opposite in fact. Does that mean it shouldn’t even be attempted? Again, of course not. All that said, I think any path to a peaceful existence is now blocked by extremists on both sides.
 

“Non-violence for me is the art of being a human being. It’s the celebration of my existence.”

 

Non-violence has not worked very well for Jews throughout history.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Israeli minister says Israel no longer able to accept existence of Gaza, calls for 'voluntary emigration'

A senior member of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government said on Tuesday Gaza could not survive as an independent entity, and Palestinians there should agree to “voluntary emigration” and leave for other countries.

The finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, said: “I welcome the initiative of the voluntary emigration of Gaza Arabs to countries around the world. This is the right humanitarian solution for the residents of Gaza and the entire region after 75 years of refugees, poverty and danger. The State of Israel will no longer be able to accept the existence of an independent entity in Gaza.

Source: Guardian

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Non-violence has not worked very well for Jews throughout history.

Right. Whereas the non non-violence is working wonderfully. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Right. Whereas the non non-violence is working wonderfully. 

Jews are not being exterminated or deported en masse right now. Works better for them than the historic alternatives.

[Annara Snow]

4 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Jews are not being exterminated or deported en masse right now. Works better for them than the historic alternatives.

What, to be exterminating someone else?

The good alternative is to commit genocide against Palestinians?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

MLK was not an elected leader or representative either. You're very much missing the point of that conversation.

Nah, I got the point, but unlike Black Americans, Palestinians have had their own national governments and elected leaders for decades who make or break any drive for self-determination and peace.

[Annara Snow]

Interesting thread title you have there. "Israel-Hamas war"? Where is that war being fought, please tell? Where are the battles being fought?

Funny way to say "Israel openly committing genocide by carpet bombing Gaza for over a month. targeting hospitals, schools, churches, mosques and refugee camps and cutting off power and fuel to hospitals and killing over 10 thousand civilians, about half of them children, under the pretext of maybe killing a Hamas leader or two while doing it"

Edited November 14, 2023 by Annara Snow

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

it is tempting to see Dr. King's success as an inevitable consequence of his tactics, simply because it was a success. We tend to ignore those others who have tried the same tactics and been ruthlessly crushed

Ultimately the success came about from the success it had convincing the people with the greatest power and ability to use it, the federal government and the politicians.  It wasn't successful on the ground where hearts and minds were not won over, shall we say, where the hearts and minds remained the same as they had been in 1860.

[Zorral]

10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Source: Guardian

Yes, this guy is saying, the only solution is to turn another people in what we were.

[Luzifer's right hand]

3 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What, to be exterminating someone else?

I did not say it that it is better for everyone. But the idea the world would be a better place for Jews if Israel was not a well armed and agressive nation is honestly ridiculous.

1 minute ago, Annara Snow said:

Interesting thread title you have there. "Israel-Hamas war"? Where is that war being fought, please tell? Where are the battles being fought?

Funny way to say "Israel openly committing genocide by carpet bombing Gaza for over a month and cutting off power and fuel to hospitals and killing over 10 thousand civilians, about half of them children, under the pretext of maybe killing a Hamas leader or two while doing it"

Even a Qatar funded news organisation calls it that in English.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/14/israel-hamas-war-live-israeli-attacks-displace-700000-children-in-gaza

[Altherion]

President Biden is an optimist:

 

Quote

President Joe Biden said Tuesday that he believes a deal can be reached to release hostages being held by Hamas in Gaza, voicing optimism as officials tell CNN prolonged talks to free hostages are nearing an agreement.

“I’ve been talking with the people involved every single day. I believe it’s going to happen. But I don’t want to get into detail,” Biden told reporters at the White House.

A senior US official familiar with the talks told CNN on Tuesday that Israel and Hamas are moving closer to a deal to secure the release of hostages taken during the Hamas attacks on Israel in exchange for a sustained, days-long pause in fighting.

The official stressed that while the parties have inched closer to striking a deal, the talks remained volatile and could still break down: “It’s closer but it’s not done.” One European diplomat on Monday expressed optimism that some hostages could be released in the coming days or weeks.

The broad parameters that are currently being discussed entail Hamas releasing a large group of hostages at the same time Israel frees Palestinian prisoners. The hostages-for-prisoners exchange would take place in the course of a sustained, days-long pause in fighting that could last as long as five days, but many details, including the duration of a pause, remain in flux.

Honestly, at this point I'll believe it when the hostages are released -- they've been "close" to a deal pretty much the whole time with almost nothing to show for it.