Israel - Hamas war XIV

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, this is bullshit. Track how many Israeli deaths there were from 2000 to 2006 (when they occupied and settled Gaza directly, along with the second intifadah) to 2007 on (where hamas was in control of Gaza). Track how many actual terrorist actions happened in those periods. Heck, even threats made were down - which was a ploy by hamas to lull Israel - so even that point is wrong. 

Here it is:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

Yes there were more deaths in that period, but read why. There's nearly 100 that are flagged as suicide bombings. And not 100 deaths, 100 instances. 

Quote

The idea that threats caused Israel to go more right wing but actual bombings in cafes didn't is just a ridiculous idea. It's far more likely that Israel went more right wing because the rest of the world has done so, combined with Netanyahu being both more desperate for any support and israel getting everything they want from the US and the international community. 

The West, and specifically the US, moved to the left, during much of this time. 

Edited January 4 by Tywin et al.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

The West, and specifically the US, moved to the left, during much of this time. 

Lol wut?  

[TheKitttenGuard]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Israel still controls a lot of Gaza when it comes to utilities. So does Egypt, albeit to a lesser extent. Hamas controls the area, has plenty of supplies with multiple wealthy states giving them money and shares next to nothing with the people there and won't make peace with Israel. Just imagine what they could have done to help their own people with the money spent creating the tunnels. 

Why do you think they need said protections in the first place? 

Hamas was primarily used to stop a two state solution. Netanyahu is touting how he stopped a two state solution it is clear on many occassion Israel did not want a two state solution. 

With the Iron Dome and Walls, they responded mainly with the Palestinian rockets and that is more rooted in the Occupation. Nuclear Weapons are to be the Ultimate Detterence, and it appears those required before '67.

[Kalbear]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Here it is:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

 

So it says exactly what I said. Cool.

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

The West, and specifically the US, moved to the left, during much of this time. 

From 2014 to 2024 the world most definitely did not move to the left. 

[fionwe1987]

There seems to be an attempt at this narrative that anything unpalatable about Israel is entirely the fault of external actors and external pressures. All positive things, though, are because Israel is a lovely democratic country, an island of progress among the uncivilized Arabs.

Gee, I wonder where that kind of language comes from. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why do you think they need said protections in the first place? 

Yes, because people objected from the gitgo.

And people like you insist the objectors had/have no right to object.  That argument started to lose leverage in about the early aughts of this century.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

29 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Hamas was primarily used to stop a two state solution. Netanyahu is touting how he stopped a two state solution it is clear on many occassion Israel did not want a two state solution. 

No one disagrees with this. Do I have to write he's a piece of shit for the 9,000th fucking time?

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So it says exactly what I said. Cool.

From 2014 to 2024 the world most definitely did not move to the left. 

Again, you're selecting the dates that make your argument work. Ignoring all the violence before 2007 doesn't help explain why Israel took the measures they did. 

11 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

There seems to be an attempt at this narrative that anything unpalatable about Israel is entirely the fault of external actors and external pressures. All positive things, though, are because Israel is a lovely democratic country, an island of progress among the uncivilized Arabs.

Gee, I wonder where that kind of language comes from. 

Who has argued this here? Israel deserves a fuck ton of blame for what it's done. I've just pointed out the situation is way more nuanced and in turn for pointing out the numerous fucked up shit the other side has done I get told to basically shut up about it. 

13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Yes, because people objected from the gitgo.

And people like you insist the objectors had/have no right to object.  That argument started to lose leverage in about the early aughts of this century.

No, I object to people forgetting which side started this war and did so with glee. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No one disagrees with this. Do I have to write he's a piece of shit for the 9,000th fucking time?

Yet he is still PM, and he is setting what Israel future. I do not care about all the polls show how despise, he is still there and making policy. 

Though to me, all this lamentations and gripes are just convenience for the policies in the end they want but do not want to be associate with the nastiness he has.

The Gazans are to have this collective punishment for an election that occurred 17 year ago that half were not born or babies, than I am fine that if Israel not getting rid of Netanyahu means support and I do not care about the polls of how high his negative are when he is still in charge.

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

No one disagrees with this. Do I have to write he's a piece of shit for the 9,000th fucking time?

Perhaps yes, since that's about the number of times you demanded the rest of us affirm that Hamas was a piece of shit? 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Who has argued this here? Israel deserves a fuck ton of blame for what it's done. I've just pointed out the situation is way more nuanced and in turn for pointing out the numerous fucked up shit the other side has done I get told to basically shut up about it. 

No, you have been far from nuanced, and have insinuated antisemitism multiple times when issues with Israel's actions have been brought up.

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I object to people forgetting which side started this war and did so with glee. 

When you say "this war" what exactly are you referring to? 

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Again, you're selecting the dates that make your argument work. Ignoring all the violence before 2007 doesn't help explain why Israel took the measures they did. 

Sigh.

Okay, let's go over what happened. In 2013 Israelis were largely pro Palestinian state. That is 6 years AFTER 2007. Since then their attitudes have gotten increasingly against a Palestinian state. I'm not ignoring 2007 and before because it's inconvenient to me - I'm ignoring it because we are talking about polls conducted in 2013 and 2023, making what happened prior to 2013 irrelevant to explaining changed attitudes after 2013.

I'm also not talking about measures they took. I'm talking about their political viewpoints and attitudes.

You're meanwhile claiming somehow that the world got more left leaning since 2013 because...I have no fucking idea. 

 

[Ran]

Any solution other than a two-state solution is even more disliked by all the parties involved. Israelis who do not want a Palestinian state may love that option, but the Palestinians obviously hate it even more than a two-state solution. Polls on the subject of a bi-national state also make it clear that Palestinians who support that also believe it should be a stepping stone to a single Palestinian state.

Years of people talking down the two-state solution doesn't mean it's impossible. Opinions change. Realities change. But more than anything, it's the minds of the Palestinians who will have to change the most. The dream of there not being an Israeli state, that "between the river and the sea, Palestine is Arab", died in 1948. Israel and its Jews are not going anywhere. As Arab states one by one give up not acknowledging the right of Israel to exist and normalize relations, as pressure is put on the likes of Qatar to stop financially supporting this delusion, as hopefully opinions change in Iran and support for proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas wanes, perhaps at last the Palestinians society will field a majority who will again agree that a state is better than no state, and Israel as a neighboring state is acceptable.

I think if the roadmap after Gaza includes a concrete path to statehood, Palestinians will come around to it, and Israelis will come around to it. The present pessimism is simply the frozen status quo that's not long for this world.

[mormont]

46 minutes ago, Ran said:

But more than anything, it's the minds of the Palestinians who will have to change the most.

This is objectively not true.

We've spent two pages talking about why Israelis are more pessimistic about the two state solution and not talking at all about why Palestinians are also more pessimistic about it. There are a number of reasons for this but one is that, though we don't talk about this, the Palestinians' opinion is of limited importance.

The lesson of the past thirty years and particularly the last ten is that Israel is the decision maker here. Israel can decide whether a two state solution happens and what it looks like if it does. Palestinians can only agree or refuse, and honestly I'm not sure whether that's even still true. Israel dictates whether there is even a conversation about a two state solution. They refused to have one, and the US said 'OK'.

Now, normally pessimism is Kal's bag, not mine. But on this, I can see nothing to be optimistic about. There's no sign that Israel as a nation actually wants what people here keep suggesting they should want, i.e. a two state solution. And as long as they don't, no-one else has the power to push them into it.

There's a feeling, I think, that they have to go that route because there is no alternative. But there are alternatives. They're just ones we would rather not think about, may even believe are unthinkable. But I believe there are people in Israel thinking about them, just the same.

All of which is to say what I've said before: as bad as things are, they can get a lot worse.

But the point is, it's Israeli opinion that has to change before there can even be a conversation about a two state solution. So it's the minds of Israelis that have to change the most.

Edited January 4 by mormont

[House Balstroko]

43 minutes ago, Ran said:

Any solution other than a two-state solution is even more disliked by all the parties involved. Israelis who do not want a Palestinian state may love that option, but the Palestinians obviously hate it even more than a two-state solution. Polls on the subject of a bi-national state also make it clear that Palestinians who support that also believe it should be a stepping stone to a single Palestinian state.

Years of people talking down the two-state solution doesn't mean it's impossible. Opinions change. Realities change. But more than anything, it's the minds of the Palestinians who will have to change the most. The dream of there not being an Israeli state, that "between the river and the sea, Palestine is Arab", died in 1948. Israel and its Jews are not going anywhere. As Arab states one by one give up not acknowledging the right of Israel to exist and normalize relations, as pressure is put on the likes of Qatar to stop financially supporting this delusion, as hopefully opinions change in Iran and support for proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas wanes, perhaps at last the Palestinians society will field a majority who will again agree that a state is better than no state, and Israel as a neighboring state is acceptable.

I think if the roadmap after Gaza includes a concrete path to statehood, Palestinians will come around to it, and Israelis will come around to it. The present pessimism is simply the frozen status quo that's not long for this world.

Palestinians will have to come to terms with the reality that Israel exists, otherwise they will remain stateless. The only way a Palestinian state fully materialises is after Israel is secure. 

[Conflicting Thought]

3 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Palestinians will have to come to terms with the reality that Israel exists, otherwise they will remain stateless. The only way a Palestinian state fully materialises is after Israel is secure. 

So never, cuz israel will never feel secure...well i guess after they ethnically cleance the palestinians in gaza and the west bank we will finally have peace.

[dbergkvist]

19 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

So never, cuz israel will never feel secure...well i guess after they ethnically cleance the palestinians in gaza and the west bank we will finally have peace.

Not even then, because they would still perceive the Palestinians that they ethnically cleansed from Gaza into Sinai as a threat, which in turn would mean that in order to feel secure, they would need to attack Egypt.

[Ran]

Good joke. 43 years of peace between Egypt and Israel, meaningless, because Israel is <insert here>.

[dbergkvist]

25 minutes ago, Ran said:

Good joke. 43 years of peace between Egypt and Israel, meaningless, because Israel is <insert here>.

When Egypt is forced to accept 2 million refugees from Gaza, their policies towards Israel are going to change, and this peace will no longer be perceived as viable. And Smotrich knows that the likes of you will assume this change is Egypt's fault. Which is a win-win to him, because he never wanted peace to begin with.

Edited January 4 by dbergkvist

[Ran]

28 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

When Egypt is forced to accept 2 million refugees from Gaza

Not actually going to happen, but continue with the trend of this particular thread having wild predictions that never come to pass.

[dbergkvist]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Not actually going to happen, but continue with the trend of this particular thread having wild predictions that never come to pass.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/we-are-not-another-star-in-american-flag-israel-minister-dismisses-us-criticism-over-emigration-of-gazan-civilians/articleshow/106506694.cms?from=mdr

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-slams-irresponsible-calls-by-smotrich-and-ben-gvir-for-emigration-of-gazans/

You may predict that they aren't going to get their way, but you can't deny that this is their stated policy.

Edited January 4 by dbergkvist

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Not actually going to happen, but continue with the trend of this particular thread having wild predictions that never come to pass.

It seems odd to denigrate a stated view of Israel's leadership as "never going to pass" and simultaneously say that something Israelis overwhelmingly don't want (a two state solution) is inevitable. Of the two which seems more wild as a prediction?