Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[kissdbyfire]

Oh dear, order of the green hand is just terrible. Since this is about hated theories, I’ll name all of theirs.

[House Cambodia]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh dear, order of the green hand is just terrible. Since this is about hated theories, I’ll name all of theirs.

If we're naming names, I've only recently come across the YouTube feud between Phoenix Ashes and Hills Alive, with Kevin Pendragon piling in. It puts me off all 3 creators and I've unsubscribed from the lot (and OOTGH).

Generally, any theory that pushes Dany, Sansa or whoever as totally evil (never mind they're flippin' children!) is so insensitive to GRRM's literary style of creating nuance and ambiguity that I can say I 'hate' it.

Edited March 30 by House Cambodia

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

If we're naming names, I've only recently come across the YouTube feud between Phoenix Ashes and Hills Alive, with Kevin Pendragon piling in. It puts me off all 3 creators and I've unsubscribed from the lot (and OOTGH).

Generally, any theory that pushes Dany, Sansa or whoever as totally evil (never mind they're flippin' children!) is so insensitive to GRRM's literary style of creating nuance and ambiguity that I can say I 'hate' it.

Parts of the fandom are completely toxic.  Dany's one of my favourite characters, but I'll happily acknowledge she has a vindictive streak, and makes some terrible mistakes.  Sansa is a less favourite character, but I still like her, and attempts to portray her as a monster in training are absurd.

[Craving Peaches]

I don't hate them, but I find theories relying on the 'second moon' myth too much strage. Only one character in the whole series ever refers to the legend and she dies in book one, plus there are other theories about the origin of dragons which seem more realistic. If it is going to play a big role I feel like it would be made more prominent.

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't hate them, but I find theories relying on the 'second moon' myth too much strage. Only one character in the whole series ever refers to the legend and she dies in book one, plus there are other theories about the origin of dragons which seem more realistic. If it is going to play a big role I feel like it would be made more prominent.

David Lightbringer's hypothesis - the first I came across after reading the full corpus. I still like it; it's not about the origin of dragons per se; it's a rational, 'scientific' astronomical/geological explanation for various events now related in myth and legend.

It explains how the oily black stone is spread so far across the continents, the Breaking of the Arm, Flooding of the Neck and possibly sudden fall of Essosian empires.

Again, the '2nd moon' and 'dragon' aspects are mythical; the rational understanding is that an asteroid slammed into the moon, sending out tons of oily moonrock that showered the planet. People with no grasp of scientific explanations evolved the facts into wondrous tales with dragons, long nights and what have you.

[the trees have eyes]

On 3/29/2024 at 2:49 PM, FantasyCreature said:

- Secret Identities 

1. Coldhands is... yep, Benjen Stark. Please. It's been disproved over and over again.
2. Melisandre is actually Shiera Seastar. Too far-fetched... and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have that reaction when she saw Bloodraven in the flames.
3. The dusky woman is Euron's spy, or even better, Euron Greyjoy himself. Wow, excellent. At least being a spy is plausible. As for Euron... More incest, anyone?
4. Speaking of Euron: Euron Greyjoy is Daario Naharis. What, can the guy teleport or something?

Please, everyone knows Benjen is Daario .  But, seriously, nice post and welcome!

The only areas I would differ is that 1) I think Tyrion being romantically involved with Penny is the best thing that could happen to him (so it won't) as it would allow him a meaningful relationship instead of pursuing an obsession over a traumatised Tysha, a bitter enmity against Cersei or lusting after teen Dany (likely his next development) and 2) although I don't subscribe to it I think there is a smidgeon of a possibility that Sansa poisoned Joffrey.

4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

David Lightbringer's hypothesis - the first I came across after reading the full corpus. I still like it; it's not about the origin of dragons per se; it's a rational, 'scientific' astronomical/geological explanation for various events now related in myth and legend.

I think every culture would have myths and legends about a second moon if there really had been one in the timeframe of human memory. IIRC the in world evidence for the second moon is an argument between Dany's handmaids which boils down to "strawhead" slave Doreah saying the second moon hatched the dragons while the Dothraki pair Irri and Jiqhui laugh at her ignorance and say the sun and moon are husband and wife.  I don't think we're meant to give either story any credence.  If GRRM has added more in his published pseudo-histories and mythos then there might be something to it but if not it feels like an intelligent but unsupported hypothesis.

[SeanF]

31 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please, everyone knows Benjen is Daario .  But, seriously, nice post and welcome!

The only areas I would differ is that 1) I think Tyrion being romantically involved with Penny is the best thing that could happen to him (so it won't) as it would allow him a meaningful relationship instead of pursuing an obsession over a traumatised Tysha, a bitter enmity against Cersei or lusting after teen Dany (likely his next development) and 2) although I don't subscribe to it I think there is a smidgeon of a possibility that Sansa poisoned Joffrey.

I think every culture would have myths and legends about a second moon if there really had been one in the timeframe of human memory. IIRC the in world evidence for the second moon is an argument between Dany's handmaids which boils down to "strawhead" slave Doreah saying the second moon hatched the dragons while the Dothraki pair Irri and Jiqhui laugh at her ignorance and say the sun and moon are husband and wife.  I don't think we're meant to give either story any credence.  If GRRM has added more in his published pseudo-histories and mythos then there might be something to it but if not it feels like an intelligent but unsupported hypothesis.

I’d thoroughly approve if Sansa had poisoned Joffrey.  Poisoning him was performing a public service.

The one who must have had nerves of steel was Margaery, marrying a man who she knew would die at the feast, and then putting in an Oscar-winning performance as grieving wife.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please, everyone knows Benjen is Daario .  But, seriously, nice post and welcome!

The only areas I would differ is that 1) I think Tyrion being romantically involved with Penny is the best thing that could happen to him (so it won't) as it would allow him a meaningful relationship instead of pursuing an obsession over a traumatised Tysha, a bitter enmity against Cersei or lusting after teen Dany (likely his next development) and 2) although I don't subscribe to it I think there is a smidgeon of a possibility that Sansa poisoned Joffrey.

I think every culture would have myths and legends about a second moon if there really had been one in the timeframe of human memory. IIRC the in world evidence for the second moon is an argument between Dany's handmaids which boils down to "strawhead" slave Doreah saying the second moon hatched the dragons while the Dothraki pair Irri and Jiqhui laugh at her ignorance and say the sun and moon are husband and wife.  I don't think we're meant to give either story any credence.  If GRRM has added more in his published pseudo-histories and mythos then there might be something to it but if not it feels like an intelligent but unsupported hypothesis.

 I'm not of the view that there was a literal second moon. Prehistoric people had no idea asteroids existed. It could have been a comet - they may have thought of them as 'moons' that appeared infrequently. It does make sense to me that a large body slammed into the moon, debris from which showered Planetos.

[FantasyCreature]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:34 AM, House Cambodia said:

Generally, any theory that pushes Dany, Sansa or whoever as totally evil (never mind they're flippin' children!) is so insensitive to GRRM's literary style of creating nuance and ambiguity that I can say I 'hate' it.

 Agreed. The complex and morally ambiguous characterization in A Song of Ice and Fire is one of my favourite aspects of the series.

 

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please, everyone knows Benjen is Daario .  But, seriously, nice post and welcome!

Ahaha, so Ben is off creating trouble in Meereen while we all worry about his fate.  And thank you!

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think Tyrion being romantically involved with Penny is the best thing that could happen to him

 True, he needs someone who really loves him.

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

lusting after teen Dany (likely his next development)

Oh, I certainly hope not... 

16 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

although I don't subscribe to it I think there is a smidgeon of a possibility that Sansa poisoned Joffrey.

Yes, I also like thinking about it. If only.

 

14 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

 I'm not of the view that there was a literal second moon. Prehistoric people had no idea asteroids existed. It could have been a comet - they may have thought of them as 'moons' that appeared infrequently. It does make sense to me that a large body slammed into the moon, debris from which showered Planetos.

That makes sense. I wonder how dragons played into the myth though? Didn't they exist before this event? Maybe it was like a reverse situation of the dinosaur extinction or something...

[House Cambodia]

9 minutes ago, FantasyCreature said:

 Agreed. The complex and morally ambiguous characterization in A Song of Ice and Fire is one of my favourite aspects of the series.

 

That makes sense. I wonder how dragons played into the myth though? Didn't they exist before this event? Maybe it was like a reverse situation of the dinosaur extinction or something...

Hundreds of chunks of oily-black comet-fragments with meteorite tails hurtling towards Planetos would look to people like dragons flying down. That's the 'science'. If there is any connection to the actual creation of literal dragons, that would be 'magic'.

I'm open to the idea of Old Ghis doing biological experiments on crossing wyverns with fire worms to create dragons, which, therefore, would likely be a completely separate matter and prior to the cataclysmic astronomical event.

[FantasyCreature]

17 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Hundreds of chunks of oily-black comet-fragments with meteorite tails hurtling towards Planetos would look to people like dragons flying down. That's the 'science'. If there is any connection to the actual creation of literal dragons, that would be 'magic'.

Well yes, I get the imagery now that you mention the tails. 

 

18 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm open to the idea of Old Ghis doing biological experiments on crossing wyverns with fire worms to create dragons, which, therefore, would likely be a completely separate matter and prior to the cataclysmic astronomical event.

Never thought about that. If it's true, then the Valyrians conquered Old Ghis with its own creation. Typical ASoIaF irony.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Hundreds of chunks of oily-black comet-fragments with meteorite tails hurtling towards Planetos would look to people like dragons flying down. That's the 'science'. If there is any connection to the actual creation of literal dragons, that would be 'magic'.

I'm open to the idea of Old Ghis doing biological experiments on crossing wyverns with fire worms to create dragons, which, therefore, would likely be a completely separate matter and prior to the cataclysmic astronomical event.

They probably mated slaves to them, too, as in Gorgossos.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

They probably mated slaves to them, too, as in Gorgossos.

Yes, huge amounts of slave-human sacrifice and unimaginable genetic experimentation.

[Aebram]

On 3/30/2024 at 8:15 AM, House Cambodia said:

David Lightbringer's hypothesis - the first I came across after reading the full corpus. I still like it; it's not about the origin of dragons per se; it's a rational, 'scientific' astronomical/geological explanation for various events now related in myth and legend.

It explains how the oily black stone is spread so far across the continents, the Breaking of the Arm, Flooding of the Neck and possibly sudden fall of Essosian empires.

Again, the '2nd moon' and 'dragon' aspects are mythical; the rational understanding is that an asteroid slammed into the moon, sending out tons of oily moonrock that showered the planet. People with no grasp of scientific explanations evolved the facts into wondrous tales with dragons, long nights and what have you.

Let's remember that this is a fantasy, not science fiction. I believe the George has said that we shouldn't go looking for scientific explanations for things like the Irregular seasons. I haven't seen the actual quote, but I've seen it mentioned here several times by other readers. Perhaps someone can provide us with a link?

That being said, I do believe that there are some common threads linking the myths and legends of various cultures in the Known World, that point to a single explanation for things like the Long Night. But I don't know if the true history will be revealed in the story. It may not be relevant to the events to come.

[sifth]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:04 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I don't hate them, but I find theories relying on the 'second moon' myth too much strage. Only one character in the whole series ever refers to the legend and she dies in book one, plus there are other theories about the origin of dragons which seem more realistic. If it is going to play a big role I feel like it would be made more prominent.

Pretty sure she dies in book 2, at the very start, but I agree with the rest of your point. The moon being filled with dragons, is a stupid story. On the subject of two things, I think the second Wall theory is pretty dumb as well. When it comes to something massive as the Wall, we would have at least some proof, of a second Wall. It would have to be reduced to atoms, for their to be no proof of it's existence in the main series. 

[The Hoare]

R+L=J

I would prefer Jon's father to be Ned and his mother a fishermen's daughter

[CamiloRP]

On 1/10/2024 at 11:28 AM, John Suburbs said:

That the poison was in the wine and Joffrey was the target.

Really? why? Like, I understand not buying it, but it being your most hated theory? it makes much more sense than most theories, even if you don't agree with it.

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Really? why? Like, I understand not buying it, but it being your most hated theory? it makes much more sense than most theories, even if you don't agree with it.

No it doesn't. The wine is utterly refuted in the text. Literally every actual fact about the poisoning, from the very beginning of the plot to the event and everything afterward, shows without a doubt that it was the pie, and yet most readers still twist themselves into knots trying to put it in the wine -- not because that it was makes the most sense but because that's how they want it to be.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No it doesn't. The wine is utterly refuted in the text. Literally every actual fact about the poisoning, from the very beginning of the plot to the event and everything afterward, shows without a doubt that it was the pie, and yet most readers still twist themselves into knots trying to put it in the wine -- not because that it was makes the most sense but because that's how they want it to be.

I'm a dumbass, I read your original comment wrong, I thought you where buying LF's story, hahahha.

I do believe the poison was in the pie and Tyrion was the target, however, I don't think that would ever be revealed, and the other explanation is wonky, sure, but not as wonky as all the "shiera seastar is gonna save the world" theories out there.

Once in this forum I argued for days with a dude who claimed Jaqen H'gar was Aegon...

[Nevets]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No it doesn't. The wine is utterly refuted in the text. Literally every actual fact about the poisoning, from the very beginning of the plot to the event and everything afterward, shows without a doubt that it was the pie, and yet most readers still twist themselves into knots trying to put it in the wine -- not because that it was makes the most sense but because that's how they want it to be.

 

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm a dumbass, I read your original comment wrong, I thought you where buying LF's story, hahahha.

I do believe the poison was in the pie and Tyrion was the target, however, I don't think that would ever be revealed, and the other explanation is wonky, sure, but not as wonky as all the "shiera seastar is gonna save the world" theories out there.

Once in this forum I argued for days with a dude who claimed Jaqen H'gar was Aegon...

If it's not revealed, it didn't happen.  We're not in the real world.

I will take this opportunity to express my utter disdain and hatred for the poison in the pie theory.  Its adherents seem to be under the mistaken impression we are reading "CSI: Westeros" or The Case of the Poisoned Prince instead of A Song of Ice and Fire.  Basing a theory on differences in reaction time to a poison is a bad idea.  GRRM tends to be careless about such details.

Other theories I hate include:

 

Bloodraven is the 'big bad' and responsible for every bad thing that has happened.

Littlefinger is the 'big bad' and is responsible for every bad thing that has happened.  The guy is an opportunist, not a master planner.

Robb's love potion.  Two teens alone, with an aggressive female?  No potion needed.

Mad Mouse = Howland Reed.

Mance hired the catspaw.

Fake Dany.  No good explanation of how or why a switch would occur.

Quentyn is still alive.

Arya will die and live on in her direwolf.  Ugh!

 

I'm sure I have forgotten some. And I haven't even bothered listing the huge number that are hard to take seriously.

The ones I have listed are hardy perennials.  Too many people take them seriously despite major flaws.  They keep popping up like weeds, and are about as welcome and hard to eradicate.

 

Edited April 1 by Nevets