The Marquis de Leech Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 2/11/2024 at 8:23 AM, Zorral said: His 'friend' Plato, who was enslaved, could have some words about this natural condition of slavery. Plato was an aristocrat. Ergo, he'd consider himself one of the people who weren't naturally slaves. It wasn't as if any writers in the Ancient World - apart from those Stoic weirdos - really disputed Aristotle's basic point. Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, House Balstroko said: I don’t follow your logic. What makes you think that a different candidate would automatically solve the issue at hand. I would love to see another candidate replace Biden, though I’m not convinced it’s the best course of action at this point. Then again, I’m not American so I have no input. Theres nothing we can do this late. Biden needed to do the responsible thing a year ago or better and announce he wasnt going to run for a 2nd term. Thats what has me disgusted, were stuck with the most unpopular incumbent since Carter and we are pretty doomed. This mess didnt develop over night, Biden knew he was unpopular, he couldnt unclutch the damn ring of power when it was the responsible thing to step aside for a stronger candidate. Edited February 12 by DireWolfSpirit Stark Revenge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, ThinkerX said: Given that Trump is actively ticking off swing voters, Biden can probably win most or all of the swing states. I hope Trump continues to outrage and turn people away but Biden is still polling poorly in all the swing states, not just a few, everyone. Maybe if they lock him in the Oval and hes not seen or heard for 6mos he'll stand a chance? Edited February 12 by DireWolfSpirit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkerX Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 11 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said: I hope Trump continues to outrage and turn people away but Biden is still polling poorly in all the swing states, not just a few, everyone. Maybe if they lock him in the Oval and hes not seen or heard for 6mos he'll stand a chance? That will change. drawkcabi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, ThinkerX said: That will change. Hopefully you are right, but my faith for that is very poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said: If people are to be believed in saying the one thing Trump is deathly afraid of is nuclear war and that he will lick Putin's erogenous zones to avoid it, it could be argued that he's the least dangerous person to possess the launch codes. One hopes he's as afraid of nuclear war with China as he is with Russia though. I guess he's less personally financially invested in China so maybe he thinks Chinese nukes are different to Russian nukes. You got distracted by my mention of nuclear codes and ignored everything else I was saying. I was using "access to the nuclear codes" as shorthand for "the tremendous military power of the US, up to and including nuclear launch codes, but a whole lot potential damage even if we exclude nuclear options." Remember, the US gives billions of dollars each year to military spending. Not only are we highest in the world in military budgets, we have 3x the budget of the country in 2nd place. You know who ranks 2nd and 3rd? China and Russia. Do you know who wants Trump to be elected? China and Russia. If Trump wins, Russia will continue to expand on its empire, and China will get started. And the US will mind its own business. Trump is corrupt enough to get along with people who personally enrich him, but he's also prickly, paranoid, and vindictive, so I wouldn't put it past him to try his on encroachment campaign on Mexico or Canada if he hears too much protest about how things are going in the US. Domestically, Trump has promised to bend or violate the Constitution to get what he wants. For instance, he plans to invoke the Insurrection Act to send military troops on citizens who protest. And he wants to forgo due process in detaining and expelling immigrants. I don't think the military would sway immediately to his side, there will be internal conflicts, which might result in something like a civil war. Or just some friction that eventually settles down, as long as Trump gives orders with some plausible deniability and the promise of pardons, or a campaign to change the Constitution. So MAGA would have access to the military to stave off internal resistance, and even now has radical paramilitary types gaming stuff like this out. We on the left would be seriously outplayed. This is all to say that American progressives who wish to create something from the ashes will have to wait generations to do so. ( @DireWolfSpirit: I say this with no hyperbole. The three most reckless and dangerous things an American can do this year is vote Trump, vote 3rd party, or not vote at all. The consequences will be absolutely disastrous. I wish Biden were younger too, but I honestly do think he has a good chance of winning. It's shit like this 3rd party or protest vote threat that is my biggest worry in that respect. Because of people like you, I am fucking terrified. Please, don't be that person!) Anyway, for people outside the US: our military will be a lot more compliant with their Commander in Chief regarding international affairs. You're not safe either. So, to sum up, if you want Europe and Japan fighting against Russia and China, and the US trying to sit it out, and all of the chaos and instability that would likely result from all that, by all means toss those dice of sanguine idiocy and see how it shakes out. Or, here's an idea: don't! Edited February 12 by Phylum of Alexandria drawkcabi and House Balstroko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Plato was an aristocrat. Ergo, he'd consider himself one of the people who weren't naturally slaves. It wasn't as if any writers in the Ancient World - apart from those Stoic weirdos - really disputed Aristotle's basic point. Similar to Tyrion in ADWD, who doesn't seem bothered by the institution per se, simply his place in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 ‘We have to get this done’: A top House Republican pushes for Ukraine aid, stat Intel Chair Mike Turner says he’s confident Speaker Mike Johnson will allow a vote on a Senate aid package. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/02/12/mike-turner-ukraine-funding-00140924 Quote Turner wouldn’t comment on private discussions but said he was confident Johnson will allow a Ukraine vote, one way or another. “I don’t think that this is one of those issues where you can change positions,” he said. “You’re either for or against the authoritarian governments invading democratic countries. … You’re either for or against the killing of innocent civilians. You’re either for or against Russia reconstituting the Soviet Union.” Turner added that if the hard right comes after Johnson, he believes Democrats will protect him from a motion to vacate: “They know the work we have yet to get done this year is essential and critical,” he said. “If the Democrats allow the fringe that threatens Johnson’s job every day to be successful, then all their priorities and the nation’s priorities would fail.” Kalbear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) TPM AT WORK: Never Before Published Details on the Trump Coup Shared/gift link -- https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/tpm-at-worknever-before-published-details-on-the-trump-coup/sharetoken/CEdeIu5CO5pT Quote Today we’re launching the first installment of a three-part series reporting never-before-published details on the failed Trump coup attempt which unfolded in the final days of 2020 and climaxed on January 6th, when a mob of feral Trumpers stormed the United States Capitol building. These stories are based on a trove of documents from co-conspirator Ken Chesebro. You can read our introduction to the series here, which outlines the overall findings, gives details about the document trove we worked with, and more. In the first installment, we report the plan to have January 6th essentially never end, or rather continue up to inauguration day, January 20th. That plan wasn’t so much to directly achieve the goal of installing Trump as President as to create so much spectacle and chaos with no end in sight that the Supreme Court would feel compelled to step in and, Trump’s lawyers hoped, install Donald Trump as President, much as it did 20 years earlier in the disputed election which ended with Bush v Gore. Along the way, we learn that Ken Chesebro was actually live-tweeting the coup through a sock puppetry online identity called “Badger Pundit,” even locking horns with online law professors as the events unfolded. There’s also the planned game of chicken, with contemplation of whether Nancy Pelosi or Mike Pence might become acting President first as the coup plotters worked to gum up the legislative process enough lure SCOTUS into the action. One point about this plan which is worth noting explicitly is that it is a microcosm of the chaos-based authoritarianism we have now seen unfolding around us for years, and saw again in spades in the legislative chaos last week. As I mentioned, the plan outlined here was not really to allow or make it possible for Congress to install Donald Trump as President. It was rather to make Congress play the role of chaotic, dysfunctional laughingstock, a body which was clearly unable to bring the electoral chaos to a conclusion. In other words, the plan was to discredit parliamentary democracy as a functional system and thus provide an opening and justification for the Supreme Court to step in, as an unreviewable power, to install Trump as President against the electorally expressed choice of the American people. It is a common, recognizable part of the authoritarian toolkit. It is difficult to justify or make good on extra-constitutional or dictatorial actions without first discrediting the processes and institutions to which these choices are properly and constitutionally assigned. That is why chaos in Congress like we saw last week is not just a show of incompetence or undisciplined exuberance on the part of feral right-wingers. It’s part of discrediting the institutions to make way for something else. It is also how and why we see the appetite for strongman action grow as Congress is stymied by chaos games and minority rule antics which make legislation impossible. Thank you to our members for making this series and all our work possible. More installments to come over the coming days. First installment here: The Chesebro Docs The Legal Coup New Documents Reveal How Trump Lawyers Sought ‘Chaos’ to Force SCOTUS, or Whoever Else, to Anoint Trump https://talkingpointsmemo.com/feature/intro-chesebro-docs Edited February 12 by Zorral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 BTW, speaking of Mark Meadows as is the case above, this -- Quote In late 2022, TPM brought you The Meadows Texts: a definitive, comprehensive look at how the White House chief of staff coordinated the scheme to subvert the 2020 election. Now, with the Chesebro documents, we have a view into how one of the main legal architects of the coup advocated for his ideas — which were far more successful than anyone could have predicted, and included discussions of unrealized, theoretical possibilities that were far more radical than we knew. It’s the anatomy of a legal coup, but also something else: an attempt to twist the law in order to instigate a constitutional crisis. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/meadows-texts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 It is Lincoln's Birthday. https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/february-11-2024? .... In the 1850s, on a fragment of paper, Lincoln figured out the logic of a world that permitted the law to sort people into different places in a hierarchy, applying the reasoning he heard around him. “If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B.—why may not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?” Lincoln wrote. “You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own. You do not mean color exactly?—You mean the whites are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and, therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own. But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if you can make it your interest, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interest, he has the right to enslave you." DireWolfSpirit, maarsen, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 9 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Theres nothing we can do this late. Biden needed to do the responsible thing a year ago or better and announce he wasnt going to run for a 2nd term. Thats what has me disgusted, were stuck with the most unpopular incumbent since Carter and we are pretty doomed. This mess didnt develop over night, Biden knew he was unpopular, he couldnt unclutch the damn ring of power when it was the responsible thing to step aside for a stronger candidate. I wouldn't be so sure that is the responsible thing. I don't think Biden's approvals necessarily reflect how voters genuinely feel about him, particularly in comparison to Donald Trump. If voters were so down on Biden, you'd think we'd see that downballot, but we're seeing the opposite--Democrats are doing quite well. So those swing state polls don't tell the whole story. You can ask, reasonably, why Biden's approvals are so low, then, and to be honest I am not sure. I suspect it has something to do with the pandemic, and something to do with inflation, and more than a bit to do with voter ignorance about both. Probably some Gaza stuff, too. That's just a suspicion, though. In any case, I have no reason to think Megan Whitmer or Andy Beshear, if they were actually running for president, would be polling significantly better right now. Edited February 12 by TrackerNeil horangi and drawkcabi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durckad Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Regarding Biden's low polling, is it entirely possible that this is due simply to the coalition of voters that elected him? Looking back to the primary, seemingly no one (by no one, I mean voters) really wanted Biden to be the nominee, but after several others dropped out and support started to coalesce around Biden, those same people that didn't want him begrudgingly ended up voting for him in the general. Those voters included: Progressives and Never Trumpers who hated and feared Trump enough to reluctantly vote for Biden, Center Right Conservatives who would normally vote Republican but couldn't stand voting for Trump (possibly again), and disaffected liberals who wanted someone else in the Primary to win but really wanted Trump out. All of this leaves Biden with an incredibly low ceiling of approval amongst his coalition and that results in the coalition being more willing to criticize the candidate they voted for. Partisan politics kinda leads to selective blinders being put on when it comes to the candidate the voters actually voted for. See, for example, Trump voters and everything they criticize other candidates of doing is something Trump has openly done. It's either a lie or fake news or okay when HE does not, but not anyone else. Whereas the coalition of reluctant Biden voters is more willing to say "Biden was never my first choice, I only voted for him to get Trump out, so he sucks on issues A, B, and C." Combine that with his (relative) lack of charisma and his age and you have very soft positive support for Biden. No idea if it's true, but it's just a thought. Phylum of Alexandria, Larry of the Lawn, Jace, Extat and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 On 2/11/2024 at 3:06 AM, Rorshach said: Seems Trump is getting more explicit about being in Putin's corner - if he could indeed become more expicit. A bit surprising to see Republicans becoming Russia supporters, but that' where we are. And Trump supporters are saying “he doesn’t mean it… he’s just triggering the left”… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Don't overthinking things because the public never will. Biden is getting blamed for a lot of things he's not responsible for while not getting credit for some really good things he's done. Combine that with him coming across in brief clips people see as the grandpa who needs his keys taken away from him and the negative impression is baked in. He shouldn't have run for a second term, Idk who should have replaced him, but here we are. If people decide to reelect Trump that speaks more about how dumb and shitty the public is more than Biden. Prince of the North, drawkcabi, House Balstroko and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And Trump supporters are saying “he doesn’t mean it… he’s just triggering the left”… No, that's what old school republicans like Graham say. JD Vance sings a different tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 10 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said: Theres nothing we can do this late. Biden needed to do the responsible thing a year ago or better and announce he wasnt going to run for a 2nd term. Thats what has me disgusted, were stuck with the most unpopular incumbent since Carter and we are pretty doomed. This mess didnt develop over night, Biden knew he was unpopular, he couldnt unclutch the damn ring of power when it was the responsible thing to step aside for a stronger candidate. So let's get into that - WHAT stronger candidate? Sanders isn't stronger by any stretch of the imagination, nor is he younger. Biden wiped the floor with the rest of them. Harris you might be able to make an argument for save that she's never polled very well and is being used as a target already, being assumed to be the 'real' person in power. Also Biden is not the most unpopular incumbent since Carter - Trump, at this point, was equally unpopular or worse. 1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said: I wouldn't be so sure that is the responsible thing. I don't think Biden's approvals necessarily reflect how voters genuinely feel about him, particularly in comparison to Donald Trump. If voters were so down on Biden, you'd think we'd see that downballot, but we're seeing the opposite--Democrats are doing quite well. So those swing state polls don't tell the whole story. Again the idea that Biden is the same level of popularity as 'general democrat' is not particularly earned. We already saw how Trump does compared to Generic Republican - worse. It's not that difficult to imagine that Biden is even worse than that. 1 hour ago, TrackerNeil said: You can ask, reasonably, why Biden's approvals are so low, then, and to be honest I am not sure. I suspect it has something to do with the pandemic, and something to do with inflation, and more than a bit to do with voter ignorance about both. Probably some Gaza stuff, too. That's just a suspicion, though. In any case, I have no reason to think Megan Whitmer or Andy Beshear, if they were actually running for president, would be polling significantly better right now. Biden's approvals are largely low because the last few years have felt really shitty for a number of people, and he gets blamed for that feeling. Inflation, as it turns out, is a MASSIVE deal for people. People can just say 'I paid less money for gas under Trump' and that is about 80% of the overall argument against Biden. It's literally that simple. Another big one is that housing is significantly less affordable for homeowners under Biden due to the interest rate hikes. A whole lot of people - especially millennials and gen z - are looking at that market and just completely giving up, and that, again, is being put on Biden. Anyway, between the pandemic and how bad that was, a couple of very high-profile international issues, and inflation it shouldn't be hard at all to understand why Biden is polling as badly as he is. That he does appear to be getting mentally worse and less coherent year over year isn't helping things, but it is the inflation. I too think that other presidents or other dem candidates would poll particularly better right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Again the idea that Biden is the same level of popularity as 'general democrat' is not particularly earned. We already saw how Trump does compared to Generic Republican - worse. It's not that difficult to imagine that Biden is even worse than that. Also the whole idea of a "Generic" Democrat or Republican is complete BS. There is no such thing in real life, everyone has baggage or reputations, or a worrying lack thereof. Once you name any specific potential candidate (except maybe Michelle Obama, not sure), those "generic" numbers drop. Edited February 12 by Phylum of Alexandria Prince of the North and TrackerNeil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 25 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Another big one is that housing is significantly less affordable for homeowners under Biden due to the interest rate hikes. Because, like in so many nations now, the housing available simply isn't enough to house the number of people who need housing. Only luxury housing and hotels and corporate behemoths have been built for decades now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: Also the whole idea of a "Generic" Democrat or Republican is complete BS. There is no such thing in real life, everyone has baggage or reputations, or a worrying lack thereof. Once you name any specific potential candidate (except maybe Michelle Obama, not sure), those "generic" numbers drop. I say with utter certainty that the instant Michelle O declared for the White House her favorables would plummet. It's always easy to like people who aren't perceived to be in the scrum of politics, and women are always, always, always less popular when they run for office than when they are simply holding office or doing anything else. Back in 2013, Hillary Clinton was a popular meme of coolness! Edited February 12 by TrackerNeil Mr. Chatywin et al., Prince of the North and Phylum of Alexandria 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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