Martin's other books

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

Has anyone read Martin's other books? If so, what is your opinion of them?

[The hairy bear]

They are great, worth-reading books. Great characterizations all arround, and there are even some snipets of early ideas of ASOIAF. That said, IMHO George is top notch at almost everything except with the endings. I found all of them lacking in a way or another.

My takes:

• Dying of the Light: Good first novel, but overall perhaps the weaker of the three. The thing is that it takes place in a dying world, with a heartbroken protagonist, and George is so good at transmiting this pessimistic mood all throughout the book, that while it's a fine read, it's a little depressing.
• Fevre Dream is a really cool vampire story set on 19th century steamboats. Great characters, and great atmosphere. One of the most interesting takes on vampires I've ever seen. I still don't understand why it hasn't been adapted.
• The first 90% of Armageddon Rag is one of the best books I've ever read. The characterization of the members of the Nazgul and the old friends of the protagonist is superb. The dialogues are great. The mystery and the tension are palpable. But then, the ending is rushed, nonsensical and unfulfilling, in a way that greatly disminishes the whole story. 

[Ormond]

So far I have only read Fevre Dream  and a couple of his books of short stories. 

But in some ways I liked Fevre Dream even more than ASOIAF.  I am normally not a fan of vampire tales, but the way Martin describes his vampires and what causes vampirisim in Fevre Dream seemed better to me than any other way I've seen it done. I really think it's an excellent novel. 

[Maithanet]

I have read Fevre Dream and Nightflyers, and both were worth reading, although Fevre Dream was the better of the two. 

I would also check out Dreamsongs, his two part collection of short stories.  There are some people on this forum who insist Martin is better at short stories than full novels, and I can see why.  Short stories need to have an end in mind when you start, so you're never going to have meandering plot or bloated chapters about tertiary characters.  Meathouse Man and Song for Lya are both excellent short stories. 

[Lord Patrek]

I second the Dreamsongs volumes. As good or better than most of GRRM's stuff.

[Paxter]

Absolutely love Fevre Dream. Highly underrated.

[Durckad]

Fevre Dream is an amazing book. Wonderful twist on vampire horror.

The Armageddon Rag is like, partially, a really cool book and a really neat snapshot in time of the post-Vietnam 70's in the USA with a side dish of psychedelic/acid rock. However, structurally, it's kind of a mess and the end just kind of happens? I do think it's worth reading but it is kinda flawed.

[Teng Ai Hui]

Windhaven (by Martin and Lisa Tuttle) was pretty good.  The reader just has to push through the first part, which is predictable and somewhat rushed.   It's basically a prologue so that the reader can witness how the society reacts to those events, which is the purpose of the story.

[Lord Varys]

The novels show a writer learning to write. Dying of the Light is recognizably growing out of a novella, but it tackles a lot of themes addressed in his early other stories and works pretty fine in that regard.

The big problem of that novel is the ending as it is akin to, say, Tyrion's story ending with him (apparently) dying on the Blackwater or drowning in the Rhoyne. You would say, 'well, in light of what came before not unexpected or totally bad, but damn hell unsatisfying'. The novel introduces concept and characters the story should have wrapped up better. Instead, it lets the (ultimate) fate of the protagonist and two other crucial characters dangling.

Fevre Dream is better conceptually but suffers from a major breakdown after two-thirds where the plot drastically changes and is then led to a kind of pitiful conclusion after a time jump. That is a big letdown. But the ending works much better.

The Armageddon Rag is arguably George's best novel prior to AGoT. It does have a proper ending and it does have a plot gravitating towards that. It's major flaw is the silly idea that actual leftist revolutionary would turn to occultism and the literal devil to bring about political change. That is not very likely as a concept, and if you try to pull something like that off, if you think of, say, of a femme fatale version of Che Guevara as an occultist nut who actually hopes the literal devil would help them to bring about a new world then, well, you have to laugh out loud.

The book would have worked much better if the people doing the plot were more like hippies trying to get back to the golden days of yore, symbolized and expressed by the music of the 60s and early 70s. Romanticism and a longing for the lost days of youth kind of fit well with occultism and demons, not so much political revolutions. One is tempted to ask what the hell the devil's tax policy would have been...

On 4/17/2024 at 1:30 PM, The hairy bear said:

 

• Fevre Dream is a really cool vampire story set on 19th century steamboats. Great characters, and great atmosphere. One of the most interesting takes on vampires I've ever seen. I still don't understand why it hasn't been adapted.

I think the scientific vampire stuff there is not so great, especially not the silly notion that a species could develop and (kind of) flourish where the women routinely die giving birth (to one child).

On 4/17/2024 at 1:30 PM, The hairy bear said:

• The first 90% of Armageddon Rag is one of the best books I've ever read. The characterization of the members of the Nazgul and the old friends of the protagonist is superb. The dialogues are great. The mystery and the tension are palpable. But then, the ending is rushed, nonsensical and unfulfilling, in a way that greatly disminishes the whole story. 

The characters there also foreshadow a lot of the characters we see in ASoIaF, especially in the Tywin-Tyrion department.

In general, though, George is a much better novella/short story writer than a novelist. His greatest works would be his later short stories/novellas (including Dunk & Egg), not so much his novels. And ASoIaF is only as great as it is because every chapter is effectively written as a short story with a punchline/twist at the end. That is mostly evident in AGoT where there are often considerable time jumps between the chapters but we also get a lot of that in AFfC which contains some of George's best prose, for instance in the Dornish chapters.

But many of the earlier short stories are pretty good, too.

[KingAerys_II]

If we put aside asoiaf , the most interesting work to me is the Elden Ring lore 

[Ran]

All of the novels are worth reading, IMO, but my favorite remains Fevre Dream despite what flaws it has compared to Armageddon Rag which really is a very, very strong book.

But the short fiction is the best stuff of all. In the 70s, George had a run there where I've seen critics opine that he was among the top short fiction writers in the genre in that era. "The Way of Cross and Dragon", "Seven Times Never Kill Man", "Bitterblooms", "The Stone City", "Meathouse Man", and on and on. Dreamsongs is a great book to pick up if you're interested in the short fiction.

[Ran]

Folks, piracy is piracy. I see someone else offer links to pirated texts, they will be banned. I know the intent is good, but just about every story of George's is in print and available to read legitimately.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Folks, piracy is piracy. I see someone else offer links to pirated texts, they will be banned. I know the intent is good, but just about every story of George's is in print and available to read legitimately.

Good.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Fevre Dream was great. The ending resonates with me till this day.

Both volumes of Dreamsongs are on my TBR shelf, as is The Ice Dragon.

 

Edited April 19 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[sifth]

Only read Fevre Dream................I wasn't a fan. I didn't hate the book, but it's no A Song of Ice and Fire and it's a book I can't ever picture myself reading again.

[A wilding]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:57 PM, Lord Varys said:

In general, though, George is a much better novella/short story writer than a novelist. His greatest works would be his later short stories/novellas (including Dunk & Egg), not so much his novels. And ASoIaF is only as great as it is because every chapter is effectively written as a short story with a punchline/twist at the end.

This.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Ran said:

Folks, piracy is piracy. I see someone else offer links to pirated texts, they will be banned. I know the intent is good, but just about every story of George's is in print and available to read legitimately.

Just to clarify, I wasn't offering links to pirated texts but ways to get access to rare stories. Some of the stories which are not collected in books that are currently in print have been published online, among them treasures like '... For a Single Yesterday' (which anyone should read right now who hasn't so far as it is really quite good and arguably a better take on 'the golden days of hippie life' than The Armageddon Rag as it focuses on the emotional/romantic aspect of it). Also, of course, sharing or loaning or giving away books isn't piracy, either, as anyone making use of a public library or a public book case knows.

It is also unfortunately not true that most of George's stories are still in print. We do have Dreamsongs, but most of the older collections are out of print for years and are hard to find (and buy) indeed. Certain stories can be bought as individual ebooks, but none of the older collections. If you want to own all of George's (collected) short story fiction you have to spend considerable time, effort, and money these days. In fact, for me it was easier to buy German translations of the collections A Song for Lya, Songs of Stars and Shadows, and The Sand Kings than to actually get a hold of the English originals.

What's in print is the (fix-up) novels (even The Armageddon Rag, strangely enough), Dreamsongs, and Nightflyers (due to the recent TV show). But the latter seems to be out of print again, actually. But it is as at least permanently available in ebook form.

The sad story is that Dreamsongs does not actually collect the bulk of George's short fiction. It appears like that because it is two big volumes, but it also contains all those scripts and editorials and excerpts from other works. A lot is missing, especially from the early days.

12 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Fevre Dream was great. The ending resonates with me till this day.

Really think the book very much breaks down when we get to the 'oh, never mind them vampires, now comes the civil war and then we go back to domestic vampire squabbles' moment. There is some good atmosphere and writing there, but it is clearly a first novel (Dying of the Light basically grew out of a novella and wasn't really conceived as a novel). It has a strong beginning and middle part and decent characters and scenery. 

Also, I think both the primeval evil vampire monster guy is too weak in his mindless power as well as the underlying message - strength, even good strength, has to come from predatory behavior/barbarism - of Joshua's (failed) fight against the guy is something I don't like. If you take it as a concept it is like going with the idea that only meat-eaters can be good soldiers or other such crap.

12 hours ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Both volumes of Dreamsongs are on my TBR shelf, as is The Ice Dragon.

You have The Ice Dragon in Dreamsongs and it is better to go with that version as the picture book aims at children and was thus slightly edited. My niece liked it, though. The picture book, of course.

Thinking a bit more about the stories, I think my favorite would be 'In the House of the Worm' which I read very late but it was a very intense reading experience, one of the kind you have a lot when your in your teens and twenties but not so much at a later age. But there was exploring the decaying world and the caves with Annelyn and I just couldn't put it down until I had finished it.

[Ran]

I welcome people putting together a list of legitimate links to GRRM's stories at still-active online magazines, and archive.org links may be okay too. But it's obvious when a text is pirated, and we do not want links to anything like that.

[IFR]

Martin is a master of short stories, and I agree that is where most of his best work is.

As much as I like A Song of Ice and Fire, it is very unfortunate that it dominated the latter half of Martin's writing career and potentially denied us many great short stories.

Tuf Voyaging is one of my absolute favorites.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

@Lord Varys

Re Fevre Dream: By ending I meant more the epilogue at the very end.

Re Ice Dragon: https://www.amazon.com/Ice-Dragon-George-R-Martin/dp/0765378779

Is this the version you're talking about re editing? I vaguely recall reading somewhere that among other things they took out the mentioning of rape.