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Varysblackfyre321

Was Robert doomed to fail from the start?

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He often blames the crown for him getting so fat and lazy and frustrated with life but would he be better off having just being lord of the storm lands? I mean Robert had all the time in the world to train and keep in shape hell he could have hired the best swordsmen in the world to spar with him but he didn't. It's not like he was busy with something important; he was just drinking and whoring all the time. What exactly would change in his behavior if he wasn't granted the crown? I don't think anything. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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It’s my opinion that a lot of Robert’s behavior after winning the crown was due to the loss of Lyanna; in part due to her death, as well as the possibility that she ran off with Rhaegar. He made Lyanna out to be the perfect woman and to compensate for losing her he whored and drank and feasted. Yes, he fathered a bastard in the Vale before he was betrothed to her and she had fears he would not keep to her bed alone; but I believe losing her exaggerated these behaviors. He was also stuck in a love-less marriage with Cersei. His whoring may have been lessened if he were married to a woman who loved him and that he had love for as well; that may not have slowed his drinking or feasting though (we see him in a drinking contest at the Tourney at Harrenhal).

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2 hours ago, Beren_One_Hand said:

It’s my opinion that a lot of Robert’s behavior after winning the crown was due to the loss of Lyanna; in part due to her death, as well as the possibility that she ran off with Rhaegar. He made Lyanna out to be the perfect woman and to compensate for losing her he whored and drank and feasted. Yes, he fathered a bastard in the Vale before he was betrothed to her and she had fears he would not keep to her bed alone; but I believe losing her exaggerated these behaviors. He was also stuck in a love-less marriage with Cersei. His whoring may have been lessened if he were married to a woman who loved him and that he had love for as well; that may not have slowed his drinking or feasting though (we see him in a drinking contest at the Tourney at Harrenhal).

He is described as having a fondness for wine and whores even before he met Lyanna. He fathered his first child, Mya, the same year his parents died. His indulgence in wine and women may have originally started as a way of dealing with the pain of his parents' deaths. 

Robert and his brothers suffered from the Baratheon curse: making gains only to lose them. 

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Not from the start, but in my opinion he made very bad choices imediatly after he became king.

Jamie should have went to the Wall, Tywin might not like it, but will acquiesce when Robert agrees to marry Cersie.(I see no actual way around this tbh)

He should be surrounded much more by Baratheon men, not the mad kings leftovers and a bunch of lannisters. He needs not only Jon Arryn, but Ned, The Tullys and Stannis to be in his inner circle, renly too when he is old enough, these are the men who should be ruling the realm for Robert, not the likes of Pycelle, Varys and little finger.

Delegate to the right people, and he can still drink and whore all he wants 

So in conclusion, not exactly the start but pretty dam close

Edited by Back door hodor

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16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He often blames the crown for him getting so fat and lazy and frustrated with life but would he be better off having just being lord of the storm lands?

There's a quote where Renly describes Robert perfectly:

Quote

“My brother was always strong,” Lord Renly said. “Not wise, perhaps, but strong.”

Robert is a medieval men, a true medieval men, almost as medieval as Ned, and that's perhaps why they got along so well despite having different personalities. Robert is no politician, he wasn't fit to rule Storm's End, let alone Westeros.

The History and Lore of the show has some interesting takes on Robert. There's one i remember well where Stannis says that if it wasn't for Jon Arryn, Robert would have seen a challenge for the throne barely a year after he took it instead of waiting nine years for the Greyjoys to declare Rebellion.

Was Robert doomed from the start? actually, he was doomed from the very beginning, right from the moment he was born as Steffon Baratheon's firstborn son. As a firstborn son, Robert knew he had the right to do stuff that second sons or even his own mother couldn't, he already had the idea that he could do as it pleased him from an early age.

He was raised in the vale with the honorable Jon Arryn and young Ned Stark. Robert then decides he wants to marry young Ned's sister, but don't kid yourself, he only wants to take her to bed to see how she is. Since she is the daughter of a Lord Paramount, Robert can't simply take her to bed(not that she would go to bed with him anyway), he has to ask Rickard for her hand.

So this is the scenario before the rebellion: Robert is set to "rule" the Stormlands and marry a girl wild as a direwolf, who won't take BS from him who does as he wants and tends to beat everyone who doesn't agree with him or doesn't do as it pleases him, a very medieval man. Robert was already doomed, and if anything, conquering Westeros was the best outcome for him, because he was able to keep his friendship with Ned in this scenario. Had he married Lyanna, i doubt he and Ned would continue to be friends, Ned would have had to end his relationship with either Lyanna or Robert if they had married, and ultimately Ned would choose his sister, and Robert would find himself without the very best part of him: Ned.

As doomed as he was, he still got best possile outcome for him.

 

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:40 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He often blames the crown for him getting so fat and lazy and frustrated with life but would he be better off having just being lord of the storm lands? I mean Robert had all the time in the world to train and keep in shape hell he could have hired the best swordsmen in the world to spar with him but he didn't. It's not like he was busy with something important; he was just drinking and whoring all the time. What exactly would change in his behavior if he wasn't granted the crown? I don't think anything. 

Robert was made for war , with the exception of feasting and whoring that was all he could do .As king nobody would dare strike him , even in practice . Afraid of angering the king and losing ones' head .

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Bob's song ended after he killed Rhaegar and won at the Trident. I don't think he cared much about what happened after that. Which may be the reason why he had his maester tend to Barristan instead of himself after the battle. If Rhaegar had gotten away at the Trident and fled to King's Landing I think Bob would have had his maester patch him up before Barristan so he could follow. Killing Rhaegar seemed to have been one of the few goals he really cared about, after he did it his life became empty.

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5 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Robert was made for war , with the exception of feasting and whoring that was all he could do .As king nobody would dare strike him , even in practice . Afraid of angering the king and losing ones' head .

Except he makes very clear the very possibility of people not giving it there all when fighting never crossed his mind. Like, he was all ready to go in the rumble (even though Ned and Barristan  he'd likely get hurt for the fact he's out of shape). He was simply too entrenched with the pleasures of drink and women to try to keep up his godly physical prowess.

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On 30/12/2017 at 1:45 AM, Beren_One_Hand said:

He was also stuck in a love-less marriage with Cersei. His whoring may have been lessened if he were married to a woman who loved him and that he had love for as well

I have a real problem with this idea I've seen repeated frequently around internet. Cersei is vain, selfish, paranoid and even sadistic - true. But she at some point hoped for a loving marriage and Robert was always abusive and disrespectful towards her, before ever giving them a chance to develop a healthy relationship. I'm sure Cersei would never be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone, ever, but Robert wouldn't either... the whoring is not Cersei's fault at all. It's Robert's, and no woman could have stopped it. I mean, if that was the case, why not have a mistress? He didn't want a relationship. 

Quote

 

She wondered what it would feel like to suckle on those breasts, to lay the Myrish woman on her back and push her legs apart and use her as a man would use her, the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth.
Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them. The only time he'd ever made her wet was on their wedding night. 
Robert had been handsome enough when they first married, tall and strong and powerful, but his hair was black and heavy, thick on his chest and coarse around his sex. The wrong man came back from the Trident, the queen would sometimes think as he was plowing her. In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong.
For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. "You hurt me," she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. "It was not me, my lady," he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. "It was the wine. I drink too much wine." To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale. As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he'd cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie.
The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.
 

Here we learn that Cersei lied to Ned back in Game when she told him Robert "hadn't been in her" for years. He was still forceful towards her until the end of their marriage. 

There is also this interaction between Cersei and the Kettleblack:

Quote
 
"It isn't. I want you."
"You've had me." 
"Only once." He grabbed her left breast again and gave it a clumsy squeeze that reminded her of Robert.

There's more:

Quote

Robert Baratheon, the First of His Name, may there never be a second. A dim, drunken brute of a man. Let him weep in hell. Taena warmed the bed as well as Robert ever had, and never tried to force Cersei's legs apart.

If a loving woman could have done anything for Robert he would have found one between the many he fucked - some of them were high born too. If he never took a mistress and always had a million lovers, there's nothing a different wife could have done. 

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6 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

Of course he wasn't fated to fail. He failed for very mundane reasons that he could have countered if he wanted or avoided to make those mistakes.

Totally agree with this.  Robert was depressed and didn't find it in himself to get off the floor.  Very weak.  He wasn't doomed, in a way he chose this every day.

@Lady Dacey once again we agree - I love your defense of Cersei.  She wasn't a saint before she married Robert but what happened to her was no less tragic.

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1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

I have a real problem with this idea I've seen repeated frequently around internet. Cersei is vain, selfish, paranoid and even sadistic - true. But she at some point hoped for a loving marriage and Robert was always abusive and disrespectful towards her, before ever giving them a chance to develop a healthy relationship. I'm sure Cersei would never be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone, ever, but Robert wouldn't either... the whoring is not Cersei's fault at all. It's Robert's, and no woman could have stopped it. I mean, if that was the case, why not have a mistress? He didn't want a relationship. 

I'm not here to whitewash Robert and this debate is as old as the books, but Cersei gave up on the relationship on night one after starting the day cheating on Robert right before the marriage. He tries to include her in activities later on and she just blows him off to sleep with Jaime.

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16 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'm not here to whitewash Robert and this debate is as old as the books, but Cersei gave up on the relationship on night one after starting the day cheating on Robert right before the marriage. He tries to include her in activities later on and she just blows him off to sleep with Jaime.

Neither of them were interested in being together. I'm not saying "Cersei would have been a good wife for him if only he'd allow her!" or anything like that, I'm just saying a different wife would not make a different Robert.

I mean I did say:

Quote

I'm sure Cersei would never be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone, ever

Aside from not being able I think she wasn't interested in such. Still, there are always people saying "poor Robert he would never have fallen so deep if it weren't for being married to Cersei" and I just don't buy it. And I believe we have evidence enough that he was very much the same man at least since the rebellion. 

Edited by Lady Dacey

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31 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Neither of them were interested in being together. I'm not saying "Cersei would have been a good wife for him if only he'd allow her!" or anything like that, I'm just saying a different wife would not make a different Robert.

It might not necessarily make a better Robert, but I'm pretty sure a different Robert is possible. A more submissive wife who overlooked his (massive) flaws would probably at least make him happier, less depressed.

31 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I mean I did say:

I'm sure Cersei would never be able to have a healthy relationship with anyone, ever

100% agree

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'm not here to whitewash Robert and this debate is as old as the books, but Cersei gave up on the relationship on night one after starting the day cheating on Robert right before the marriage. He tries to include her in activities later on and she just blows him off to sleep with Jaime.

Plus, she gave herself a cup of moon tea whenever Robert had sex with her.

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Robert had the misfortune to marry an unusual woman in Cersei.  I don't mean that to criticize Cersei but just to point out that most women of their culture would swallow their pride and accept Robert's womanizing ways.  Robert could have been better served by a woman from a minor house who would be content with the trappings of royalty and accept the humiliation from Robert's infidelity with grace.  Cersei is a strong woman and not one to take it lying down.  She had infidelities of her own and if we turn the tables just for fun she will not stop seeing Jaime even if Robert was a good husband.

A woman like fat Walda would be ideal for Robert.  Someone who would be happy to have the title of queen even if the husband was unfaithful.  Cersei already had it all and expected to have it all.  Walda had very little prospects.  Someone like Walda will take Robert's insults better than Cersei did.

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On 30/12/2017 at 6:33 AM, Back door hodor said:

Jamie should have went to the Wall, Tywin might not like it, but will acquiesce when Robert agrees to marry Cersie.(I see no actual way around this tbh)

Just for the record I believe doing this would result in Cersei having him killed within a year of the marriage. Likely before Jaime is even sent to the Wall and perhaps involving them trying to claim the throne for themselves.

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Robert had to blame something for his failings. He certainly wasn't going to blame himself. Though all the foundations for his whoremongering were there well before his engagement to Lyanna. So yes, I think Lord Robert of Storm's End would've ended up fat and unhappy just as King Robert did. The absence of Cersei and his councilors aren't going to change his lookout on life. He'd neglect running Storm's End just as he did King's Landing, he's neglect his trueborn children just as he did Cersei's, and he'd be surrounded by his retainers and brothers trying to do some damage control for his failings without beggaring one kingdom instead of seven.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Robert had to blame something for his failings. He certainly wasn't going to blame himself. Though all the foundations for his whoremongering were there well before his engagement to Lyanna. So yes, I think Lord Robert of Storm's End would've ended up fat and unhappy just as King Robert did. The absence of Cersei and his councilors aren't going to change his lookout on life. He'd neglect running Storm's End just as he did King's Landing, he's neglect his trueborn children just as he did Cersei's, and he'd be surrounded by his retainers and brothers trying to do some damage control for his failings without beggaring one kingdom instead of seven.

Perhaps a little worse off since he would have nothing to point to that would show his life at least at some poor having a meaning? That he did something before he became fat and an alcoholic. Or maybe less so? If he was never great to begin with perhaps he won't feel the sting of his inadequacy 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Robert failed as a king but I'm not sure he failed as a man overall, despite his flaws.

He left children alive after him and went out in history as a man who overthrew a 300 years old dynasty. He beat the Targs fair and square. 

 

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