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Moondancer

FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

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19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hrm so this is really a thing?  One of the best *love stories*--Jaehaerys and Alysanne--of the series and she gets to be a cheat?

Two estrangements, with one lasting at least two years? That sounds like one of the best "love stories"? What evidence made you feel like it was one of the best?

Its not settled though and i doubt it will be out right said in the books, least of all from a Maester, who have so far painted her in a positive light.

I would say that the clues are there. I made the mistake of thinking Bael based on the legend mentioning K.R. and Lord Starks, but Bael is not what tipped me to Alysanne. Queen's Crown and the fact that crowning is a birthing term is what tipped me. Along with the fact that the Azor Ahai prophecy i think isn't a literal sword but "a bloody sword" Brandon mentions. Toss is Bael (Wildling with Valyrian name, Rhaegar a Valyrian, and Loras Tyrell descended from House Garderner supposedly, who are also listed as Targaryen Kings by legend of Serwyn), all giving roses to a Stark. Plus more clues hinting at babies as an important theme and so many more little clues. Following what Martin said about Ae diphthong etc.  I still wouldn't be surprised if her tale mirrored Bael's though, as this bride stealing seems to be the point going all the way back to Durran God's Grief stealing the daughter of the gods. The Targaryens who are thought of as gods or nearer to.

It also may have nothing to do with love. This is a sacrifice, so i wouldn't expect anything good from it.

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6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So we'll say Lady Stone Heart, what's the difference? Or is there any?

Not sure if Beric and Lady Stone Heart only rise at night, i dont recall enough info on that, but shouldn't they be blocked from the wall too? Or is that the trick?

Different magic, different rules for them. They don't have the blue eyes and black hands, either.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Different magic, different rules for them. They don't have the blue eyes and black hands, either.

That's what i was wondering too. Thank you. I can see a connection with Bloodraven then as Beric sits a weirwood throne and though he does use fire visions, Bran seems to have a fire vision in B.R.'s cave too.

Have my head going nuts now though trying to figure out "different magic". Beric, Lady Stone Heart, and Coldhands, im guessing are raised with the power of R'hllor? Or the Weirwoods? or is there no difference as i suspect? And if so, then how is the Other's magic different? Are they harnessing another form of power, other than the trees and or fire magic? Is it tied into how they were created?  Interesting that the same magic that governs them (the Others), is the same magic tied to the wall, and all of which is different than the magic used by B.R., Beric, etc. 

I assumed the CotF were responsible for the creation of the Others, so perhaps this is why B.R. is so special, he has access to different powers from the CotF allowing him to raise dead people who can cross the wall. Though if this is the case, it makes me wonder about him choosing Bran then as his successor. Unless this ties to my working Bael the Bard theory and the North's relations with Valyria prior to the Doom. Bran then would have Valyrian blood in him and access to this same power, same for Jon.

 

Edit- Wait, So what's that mean for Coldhands? Who has Black hands, but not the blue eyes, but he can't pass the Cave's magic, so im assuming he can't pass the wall?

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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On 9/27/2018 at 11:04 AM, Moondancer said:

 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/

 

"And there were still certain houses that had never accepted the Seven, no more than the northmen had, the Blackwoods in the riverlands chief amongst them, and mayhaps as many as a dozen more."

Name them, GRRM, name them!

 

A wickedly good lil thing,  so excited fot this book!

 

  1. Notoriously prickly huh.  Those damned Starks.   And stingy at that.  This supports my view that the North and the Starks are quite poor.  
  2. The wall was built by the Others to keep man away.  They only accepted Craster because he was giving up his boys to them.  
  3. A court to hear the grievances of the women.  The lord's right to the first night.  Check.  I can imagine this did not go over too well with the northern barbarians.  
  4. Gifting additional lands to the Night's Watch.  Probably Umber lands taken from the lords of the last hearth.  

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/drool. I have to say this morsel really does make me hungry for more.

Late to the party,  but my two coppers on Silverwing and the Wall:

I think, and have thought, that the Wall must be more than a simple barrier that only prevents movement of objects, entities, and energy through the space that it physically occupies. It seems to block weirwood-related abilities (except when it doesn't) as well as ice-related magic (except when it doesn't). It seems to be made primarily of ice magic but it also strengthens rather than dampens fire magic if Melisandre is to believed. It is said to be a barrier against the Others, but could only really be said to be effective against their undead minions as a physical obstacle since their animating magic can survive a trip through the Wall itself and effective in unknown ways against the Others themselves who are obviously clever enough to go around, under, or over the Wall as suits them unless there is something more at play. The abilities of skinchangers can apparently be stymied, unless a greenseer links into the weirnet which either overcomes the hurdle by way of roots going under the Wall or simply by existing partially beyond linear time and space or by skinchanging into a flying animal and physically flying over the Wall. Varamyr was flying very near the Wall and no mention was made of any antipathy, at least. The last Greenseer's thousand eyes and one could possibly make the trip as well- those that don't roost at Raventree, anyways. It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in miles of enchanted ice.

Dragons seem more akin to me to the Others rather than their minions- the description of the death of Ice Dragons in TWoIaF compared to the death of a WW at Samwell's hands makes me think that they are in fact the same substance, that all White Walkers are Others but that not all Others are "sculpted" to look like humans and that something similar might be in play with dragons and their riders. The Wall would not affect the bond a dragon and her rider, i suspect, because it is not psychically manifested in the first place but it might interfere with the dragon itself in some way that is bound up with Ice and apparently Fire magic that went into raising and maintaining the Wall. Or, as surmised elsewhere, Silverwing could be responding to the presence of the Others somewhere beyond the Wall. Valyria was already centuries ashes and the empire of Ice presumably on the rise, so perhaps a dragon could sense their hateful industry beyond that high horizon but a third possibility should be mentioned; that the Wall enforces/creates an existential boundary that alters the very nature of reality on either side- writing in blood on the map of the world, "here there be dragons and here there be Others".

Edited by hiemal

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3 hours ago, Blooddragon said:

I feel like the new Daeanerys was introduced to be a daughter of Lord Stark. Just saying.

As second child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne Daenerys surely would have been born prior to 58 AC.

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16 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

How interesting.  So the North is a sort of a boundary between the forces of fire and ice.   

I like that idea. Like a demilitarized zone. 

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Martin has stated that the fact that Jon cannot sense Ghost when the Wall is separating them is a meaningful plot point.

Clearly the Wall disrupts magical bonds. The fact that Bloodraven and Bran can penetrate it is because they tap into the weirnet which has roots running underneath the Wall. I see no reason why Bloodraven’s physical connnection to the trees is any different to Bran’s mental connection to them. As long as you can access one tree, which Bran does, you can access the entire weirnet. You don’t need parts of the tree growing into your flesh to do that. Greenseers don’t have to be physically fused with their trees in order to exercise their powers.

As for Silverwing. Dragons have the intelligence of dogs. No more. If a Dragon is a magical construct - an artificial blending of wyverns and Firewyrms through bloodmagic, the Dragon need not understand why the Wall is a barrier that prevents it from passing. It would just inherently sense its power and be repelled by it.

It would be interesting to know if a Dragon has ever been able to pass over the walls of Storm’s End which have similar, if likely less powerful, anti magic spells woven into its foundations.

Similarly, would Silverwing have been able to enter Winterfell, had Alaric allowed it, whose foundations likely have the same ancient barrier spells as Storm’s End woven into it.

 

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

As second child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne Daenerys surely would have been born prior to 58 AC.

Well, before posting anything, I checked the wiki. It was stated that Aegon, their firstborn, was born between 50 and 59 AC, so anything could be possible.

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39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Clearly the Wall disrupts magical bonds. The fact that Bloodraven and Bran can penetrate it is because they tap into the weirnet which has roots running underneath the Wall.

That idea is not really convincing, since that implies a physical network - which you also claim is not necessary for being a greenseer. If the greenseers can pass through the Wall the fact that a living weirwood is actually part of the Wall is most likely more relevant in this case than anything else.

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It would be interesting to know if a Dragon has ever been able to pass over the walls of Storm’s End which have similar, if likely less powerful, anti magic spells woven into its foundations.

Sure they can. This has been confirmed a long time ago. You do know what happened during the Dance at Storm's End, right?

39 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Similarly, would Silverwing have been able to enter Winterfell, had Alaric allowed it, whose foundations likely have the same ancient barrier spells as Storm’s End woven into it.

We also know that dragons were at Winterfell - not those six dragons who may not have been there, after all, but Vermax with Jacaerys Velaryon - he or she supposedly even visited the crypts of Winterfell. Something that would have only worked if the dragon had been within the castle.

9 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

Well, before posting anything, I checked the wiki. It was stated that Aegon, their firstborn, was born between 50 and 59 AC, so anything could be possible.

It would be very odd if they had only had one successful pregnancy between 50-58 AC. Chances are very low that Daenerys was born this late - not to mention that it is also very unlikely that Alysanne and Alaric actually had an affair. They got along, and one could see Alaric being rather receptive if the queen had wanted to get into his pants.

But do we really think Alysanne Targaryen wanted to do that? I'd be very surprised...

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5 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

Well, before posting anything, I checked the wiki. It was stated that Aegon, their firstborn, was born between 50 and 59 AC, so anything could be possible.

Sure, does not mean it is likely though. Aegon's latest year of birth is based on the calculation of his younger brother Aemon whose daughter Rhaenys was born in 74 AC, which according to the calculation rules places Aemon's birth in 61 AC at the latest. Now usuaĺly men are at least around 16 when they marry, so Aemon would have been born some years earlier. This is is also supported by the fact that Alyssa Velaryon was already 40 in 47 AC, so her daughter (and Aemon's wife) Jocelyn most likely was not born well after 50 AC. Now 61 AC as date for Aemon would make him significantly younger than his wife, which is rather unusual as well.

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I have been wondering if Silverwing not flying over the Wall isn't just some kind of barrier to counter her. What if Alysanne's blood plays a part in that as well. She's not just part Targaryen, she's also a Velaryon which makes her blood as Valyrian as it will come in those days. Maybe she too can't go beyond the Wall.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Two estrangements, with one lasting at least two years? That sounds like one of the best "love stories"? What evidence made you feel like it was one of the best?

Its not settled though and i doubt it will be out right said in the books, least of all from a Maester, who have so far painted her in a positive light.

I would say that the clues are there. I made the mistake of thinking Bael based on the legend mentioning K.R. and Lord Starks, but Bael is not what tipped me to Alysanne. Queen's Crown and the fact that crowning is a birthing term is what tipped me. Along with the fact that the Azor Ahai prophecy i think isn't a literal sword but "a bloody sword" Brandon mentions. Toss is Bael (Wildling with Valyrian name, Rhaegar a Valyrian, and Loras Tyrell descended from House Garderner supposedly, who are also listed as Targaryen Kings by legend of Serwyn), all giving roses to a Stark. Plus more clues hinting at babies as an important theme and so many more little clues. Following what Martin said about Ae diphthong etc.  I still wouldn't be surprised if her tale mirrored Bael's though, as this bride stealing seems to be the point going all the way back to Durran God's Grief stealing the daughter of the gods. The Targaryens who are thought of as gods or nearer to.

It also may have nothing to do with love. This is a sacrifice, so i wouldn't expect anything good from it.

Sandman, you know I really enjoy your imagination and ideas.   I don't have to agree with even 1 of them to be glad I took the time to read your stuff.  I don't know you and you don't know me, which is fair enough.   I imagine you are the complete opposite of me and I like that.   That said, I've got my search for Alysanne up behind this post and offer you this from the perspective of a completely different type of person.  Stay with me, Brother.   

Remember when Cat was telling Robb about following his heart in marrying Jeyne instead of manning up to a critical vow he made to a strong ally?   She told him how she and Ned grew to love each other--it wasn't star crossed or wild--it was work and compromise and more work to get there.   Much as I am not a Cat fan, I will not take that declaration of love from her.   True, we are not privy to the mad passion that may have existed between Jaehaerys and his sister.   But we do know that they were activists and good rulers.   We know they understood their duty as rulers of Westeros to the point Alysanne is remembered in history books as Jaehaery's greatest love.   Emphasis on greatest.   Where some might go aha, that alley cat slept around...I think he just loved many things and ideas and people without having to get naked with any of them.   Same for Alysanne.   We know she was very upset at their daughter being passed over for inheritance--the throne, in favor of their son.   I can't believe for a moment that either parent loved either child more than the other.   This was a decision that would have far reaching ramifications for a new realm perpetuating the unfairness against women.   Who knows?   Perhaps it was a 1st born thing over being a daughter?  All I know is that this decision had all the ingredients for a very unhappy personal and professional life.  

I think it's cheap and detracting from the wonderful deeds of the good Queen Alysanne to bring any blight upon her honor related to Jaehaerys--the only love we know she had.  How do I figure J +A is a wonderful love story?   In their struggles to build a better world for everyone, my friend.   In their happy and fruitful marriage.   In their huge family they were so proud of.   In their amazing work together, personally and professionally.   I'm totally good with a couple of nice characters in this story particularly.   That said I'm not taking anything from you Man.   This idea of yours could be a lot of fun if I wasn't just really happy to have this glimpse of a couple who worked very hard and mostly very successfully together.   When the smoke clears, what is love beyond that right there? 

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin has stated that the fact that Jon cannot sense Ghost when the Wall is separating them is a meaningful plot point.

Clearly the Wall disrupts magical bonds. The fact that Bloodraven and Bran can penetrate it is because they tap into the weirnet which has roots running underneath the Wall. I see no reason why Bloodraven’s physical connnection to the trees is any different to Bran’s mental connection to them. As long as you can access one tree, which Bran does, you can access the entire weirnet. You don’t need parts of the tree growing into your flesh to do that. Greenseers don’t have to be physically fused with their trees in order to exercise their powers.

As for Silverwing. Dragons have the intelligence of dogs. No more. If a Dragon is a magical construct - an artificial blending of wyverns and Firewyrms through bloodmagic, the Dragon need not understand why the Wall is a barrier that prevents it from passing. It would just inherently sense its power and be repelled by it.

It would be interesting to know if a Dragon has ever been able to pass over the walls of Storm’s End which have similar, if likely less powerful, anti magic spells woven into its foundations.

Similarly, would Silverwing have been able to enter Winterfell, had Alaric allowed it, whose foundations likely have the same ancient barrier spells as Storm’s End woven into it.

 

Where is that bolded bit from Ser?   I always assumed dragons were at least as intelligent as bonded dire wolves so this is a new twist and has the potential to change more than 1 dynamic.   I'd like to read more if you can direct me to the place.  

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Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Clearly the Wall disrupts magical bonds. The fact that Bloodraven and Bran can penetrate it is because they tap into the weirnet which has roots running underneath the Wall. I see no reason why Bloodraven’s physical connnection to the trees is any different to Bran’s mental connection to them. As long as you can access one tree, which Bran does, you can access the entire weirnet. You don’t need parts of the tree growing into your flesh to do that. Greenseers don’t have to be physically fused with their trees in order to exercise their powers

:agree:

And I think Bloodraven is physically joined w/ the heart tree so that he can linger beyond a human's normal lifespan, w/ the specific purpose of being able to wait for Bran. 

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30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

:agree:

And I think Bloodraven is physically joined w/ the heart tree so that he can linger beyond a human's normal lifespan, w/ the specific purpose of being able to wait for Bran. 

Did then the other living corpses who preceded Bloodraven in the illustrious position of greenseer also wait for somebody? Or isn't it actually pretty great to connect to a tree and get a much longer lifespan?

At this point we have no evidence that greenseers are, usually, mobile. If they were, the First Men should have had little chance against them. But stationary people cannot run away. Once you know some ugly sorcerer sits beneath every weirwood grove you cut the trees down and you dig the creep out and put him down.

If they could run and hide the animals should have made short work of the First Men. A greenseer can apparently dozens or hundreds of animals at the same time, which would extend to domesticated animals, too. They would have been so fucked.

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It would be interesting to know if a Dragon has ever been able to pass over the walls of Storm’s End which have similar, if likely less powerful, anti magic spells woven into its foundations.

According to the Worldbook, apparently yes:

Quote

For a few days it was feared that Storm’s End might suffer the same fate as Harrenhal, for Argilac’s daughter Argella barred her gates at the approach of Orys Baratheon and the Targaryen host, and declared herself the Storm Queen. Rather than bend the knee, the defenders of Storm’s End would die to the last man, she promised when Queen Rhaenys flew Meraxes into the castle to parley. “You may take my castle, but you will win only bones and blood and ashes,” she announced...

 

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Thinking more about this, I suspect flying over the Wall isn't deadly to creatures made of magic, nor is going under it. But it is a physical barrier. So my take at present is not that the Wall itself scared Silverwing, but the fact that -- as a creature of magic -- it sensed the fact that an inimical magic permeates the lands beyond the Wall, a magic that is held back by the Wall. South of the Wall, Silverwing sensed nothing... but as soon as it was above it, and Alysanne tried to push the dragon beyond the Wall, it sensed that magic and refused to go towards it.

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