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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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53 minutes ago, DanaKz said:

There was a theory about Gods punishing all those scoundrels who wronged Targaryens

The Starks were... IDK, but something important in the resolution of the former LN. They built Winterfell and did good (at least better than other) at keeping the peace. The North was the only place where no one found advantageous to side with the Andals invaders and overthrow their rulers. Then Aegon came, and he said: Give me your house or I'll burn everyone. Something was wrong. The Targaryens kingdom was built on wrongness. It was Fire and Blood all its short history. Daenerys did no better with her "bend the knee or burn". It needed fixing.

BTW, I believe the gods have some views about what should be. Even if they don't help a lot. Maybe they just gave the direwolves and the promised prince.

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Posted (edited)

There's not much hope in this ending. I agree that Martin does not deconstruct tropes, he reconstructs them - however, the point of reconstruction is that the process of getting to the trope still makes sense and is delivered realistically. I think this ending, if it is GRRM's, is quite nihilistic, delivered unrealistically, and confirms the worst of the fantasy tropes that the author claims to critique. Most of these fatal flaws in the story center on Jon, Bran, and Tyrion.

- Jon's ending is SUPER SAD and sets the tone of the entire story IMO. Jon is shuttled off to the Night's Watch, disinherited, and returns to a place where Catelyn wanted him to go. So Cat was right, Jon doesn't belong as a member of the Stark family? Also, it's unclear if the NW even serves a purpose anymore. He could just as well help the wildlings as a king or a lord - after all, aren't people supposed to be integrated rather than ostracized (GRRM is very pro-immigration). I dont think Jon actually liked the NW as an institution, and the "band of brothers" ideal went sour once they turned on him. Jon lives by his own code which is usually correct. I thought he needed the freedom to make his own decisions as ruler. Jon being king would be reconstructed Aragorn and would make perfect sense. Instead we get...

- Bran the tree wizard ascends to the throne, because it was "destined" and he "foresaw" it. We have no idea what Bran's tax policy would be, the ruling experience he has amounts to a small scene when he greets Meera and Jojen. He's implicated so much in the magical aspects of Westeros that it would be like a younger Elrond becoming king at the end of LOTR, out of nowhere.

- Jon's character experiences massive injustice at Tyrion's expense. Jon is a kinslayer and killed his lover. Tyrion did the same. Tyrion gets off scott free, gets to do what he enjoys - playing the game and being Hand. Who knows, he may even be heir to Casterly Rock. Gets to father children. Gets to fuck whores, ect. ect. Jon meanwhile is condemned to celibacy even though he wants a son so badly he involuntarily wargs into his wolf (his Stark side).

The only hopeful thing I see in this ending is, Ghost lives. That just isn't enough to feel hopeful, and it completely misses the LOTR catharsis. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 11:13 PM, teej6 said:

I’m so tired of people reducing the book’s sole purpose to subverting/destroying tropes. If that’s all that mattered to Martin, his story would be terrible and would eventually become predictable and meaningless. What he does, and does well, is introduce elements of reality to character tropes. So whether it be the protagonist or the antagonist, we as readers get to hear their thoughts, understand their motivations, fears, and justifications. This makes these characters more real and we can empathize with them more than the standard fantasy hero/villain. As to Ned dying in the first book, this was perhaps a shock to a lot of readers, but if you take the series as a whole, he was never the protagonist. He was the father figure in fantasy/ mythology whose death/ failure is the impetus needed to develop the characters of his kids/ prodigies. His death is required to set the story in motion and to set up the growth in the character arcs of the actual protagonists. And that’s exactly what Martin gave us.

Martin has said on several occasions that he loses interest in a story if he knows the ending and he likes to surprise the reader, but he’s also said his story should flow organically. If all he cared about was subverting tropes and readers expectations, his story wouldn’t be very good and would be rather meaningless. Martin is smart enough to know that hope is a central theme in fantasy/mythical storytelling and he is writing fantasy after all, despite how much people would like to argue otherwise.

Sansa's story, which is by far the tropiest, is completely deconstructed though. 

If her ending affirmed tropes, she would find her prince in some way. The journey getting there would be unexpected though. 

If her ending is completely subverted, she'd realize that she doesn't need a prince at all and would just rule as Elizabeth I. Which the show implied. 

I do hope GRRM plays with the first option. Since her story is so implicated in songs involving Targaryens and dragons (Jenny of Oldstones, the Dance of Dragons, Florian/Jonquil), I do think Jon/Sansa will be a thing, it will just be a secret and a rumor, like Jace/Sara: not known about publicly but readers of the POV will know the truth. But Jon and Dany will be public, maybe the world believes they’re in love, maybe songs will be written about them, but only their POVs tell us the truth (it's not a love story for Jon).

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Arya's ending isn't very hopeful either, because of the track record of all the explorers in F&B who sailed off and caught terrible diseases, disappeared, or died. Queen Nymeria's story is actually more hopeful and inspiring than Arya's. Apparently even Maisie said it didn't make sense to her that Arya just sailed away alone. She couldnt even tell Jon that she would visit??

Also, I'm not being too serious here, but I feel for the Gendry x Arya shippers who were like...what the hell? Gendry is looking so fine and regal in his new get up and Arya rejects him for a cruise? LOL

 

 

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On 6/10/2019 at 10:11 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

There's not much hope in this ending. I agree that Martin does not deconstruct tropes, he reconstructs them - however, the point of reconstruction is that the process of getting to the trope still makes sense and is delivered realistically. I think this ending, if it is GRRM's, is quite nihilistic, delivered unrealistically, and confirms the worst of the fantasy tropes that the author claims to critique. Most of these fatal flaws in the story center on Jon, Bran, and Tyrion.

- Jon's ending is SUPER SAD and sets the tone of the entire story IMO. Jon is shuttled off to the Night's Watch, disinherited, and returns to a place where Catelyn wanted him to go. So Cat was right, Jon doesn't belong as a member of the Stark family? Also, it's unclear if the NW even serves a purpose anymore. He could just as well help the wildlings as a king or a lord - after all, aren't people supposed to be integrated rather than ostracized (GRRM is very pro-immigration). I dont think Jon actually liked the NW as an institution, and the "band of brothers" ideal went sour once they turned on him. Jon lives by his own code which is usually correct. I thought he needed the freedom to make his own decisions as ruler. Jon being king would be reconstructed Aragorn and would make perfect sense. Instead we get...

- Bran the tree wizard ascends to the throne, because it was "destined" and he "foresaw" it. We have no idea what Bran's tax policy would be, the ruling experience he has amounts to a small scene when he greets Meera and Jojen. He's implicated so much in the magical aspects of Westeros that it would be like a younger Elrond becoming king at the end of LOTR, out of nowhere.

- Jon's character experiences massive injustice at Tyrion's expense. Jon is a kinslayer and killed his lover. Tyrion did the same. Tyrion gets off scott free, gets to do what he enjoys - playing the game and being Hand. Who knows, he may even be heir to Casterly Rock. Gets to father children. Gets to fuck whores, ect. ect. Jon meanwhile is condemned to celibacy even though he wants a son so badly he involuntarily wargs into his wolf (his Stark side).

The only hopeful thing I see in this ending is, Ghost lives. That just isn't enough to feel hopeful, and it completely misses the LOTR catharsis. 

I think the showrunners completely misunderstood GRRM when it came to Bran.

Bran won't rule like an ordinary king does. He'll be more like the Ghost of High Heart instead of Robert Baratheon. A cross between God, Zordon from Power Rangers and the Supreme Court. There will be a brief revival of the faith in the old gods.

Bran will set up himself either on the Isle of Faces with a weirwood "throne" of his own or in the ruins of the Winterfell godswood...people go to him to seek justice, protection, emotional comfort, wisdom or knowledge. And he humbly accepts them. Eventually, as he grows older and becomes less human/more of a tree, people stop coming so much. Until all is forgotten.

In a way, he is a god-king-judge all rolled into one. But he is not a king...not in the way that the showrunners portrayed it or the characters in the story (both books and TV show would understand)

I think the one to be an actual king (as in the ruler of both day-to-day affairs and emergency situations like war, famine and disasters) will be Sansa. It makes more sense for Sansa to be the one to rule than Bran. Sansa has a claim to the Eyrie, Casterly Rock, Winterfell, Riverrun, Harrenhal, the Dreadfort and who knows however else before the end of the story. Out of everyone, Sansa Stark is second to only Tyrion (who probably will not survive the series) in terms of connections to powerful people and important places. Sansa has the most training, etc.

And don't get me even started on Tyrion.

 

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think the showrunners completely misunderstood GRRM when it came to Bran.

Bran won't rule like an ordinary king does. He'll be more like the Ghost of High Heart instead of Robert Baratheon. A cross between God, Zordon from Power Rangers and the Supreme Court. There will be a brief revival of the faith in the old gods.

Bran will set up himself either on the Isle of Faces with a weirwood "throne" of his own or in the ruins of the Winterfell godswood...people go to him to seek justice, protection, emotional comfort, wisdom or knowledge. And he humbly accepts them. Eventually, as he grows older and becomes less human/more of a tree, people stop coming so much. Until all is forgotten.

In a way, he is a god-king-judge all rolled into one. But he is not a king...not in the way that the showrunners portrayed it or the characters in the story (both books and TV show would understand)

I would rather believe something along the line. He would be like the greenseers of the CotF, not their kings, but their "wise-men". Or like the Fisher Queens of Essos. Maybe men will have to travel farther north than Winterfell to seek his counsel? Cheap counsels are not estimated at their right price.

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Apologies if this was discussed already, but does anyone have any ideas as to how present Daenerys connects to the first Daenerys, who died of the shivers? Fire & Blood contained a lot of parallels for season eight: Elissa Farman sailing west, a Great Council, Rhaenyra's fall from grace, etc. George retconned Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children so that their first daughter was now named Daenerys, and died of the shivers, so I had taken this to mean that Dany would die fighting the White Walkers. 

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On 6/12/2019 at 12:21 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apologies if this was discussed already, but does anyone have any ideas as to how present Daenerys connects to the first Daenerys, who died of the shivers? Fire & Blood contained a lot of parallels for season eight: Elissa Farman sailing west, a Great Council, Rhaenyra's fall from grace, etc. George retconned Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children so that their first daughter was now named Daenerys, and died of the shivers, so I had taken this to mean that Dany would die fighting the White Walkers. 

 

I took that to give us information that Targaryens are susceptible to diseases after all and as explanation why Aemon married a Baratheon rather than a younger sister. Jaeherys' ambivalent reaction to Alysanne's insistence that Daenerys is the heir since she is older when Jaeherys started referring to Aemon as his heir is another interesting set up to the conditions that created the Dance and Jaeherys' views around male primogeniture, while seeking to avoid direct confrontation with Alysanne at the time.

Beyond that I'm not sure ... are we supposed to worry 'present day' Dany could have the pale mare? Serms like an unnecessary complication with so much story to go. Maybe it is as you say foreshadowing that Dany faces the Others - but maybe with a more successful outcome.

While there are really no good reasons why Targs have to make a come back, should fAegon rule for a while Dany fails to gain the throne, that does seem a sad fate for Targ women. Not unknown in the real world - how many Roman empresses did we have ? - it does seem surprising given how Visenya and Rhaenys were almost co-rulers with Aegon and later Alysanne with Jaeherys until the Great Council ruling completely changed the dynamic.

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I'd just like to point out that GRRM never confirms Lyanna is Jon's mother in Book Canon. 

We have this from D&D:

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4


This from GRRM:

 It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told.   The years have gone past in the blink of an eye.  Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner?  I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was.   Fortunately, they did.

All this confirms is that GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was and they gave the correct answer. This does not mean that it confirms Lyanna as book canon as Jon's mother, it doesn't even mention her name. Do we need to list all the known differences between the show and the books? Just because Lyanna is Jon's mother in the Show, doesn't mean it is 100% certain she will be in the Book. 

It also doesn't confirm RLJ. The father is never mentioned, neither is Rhaegar's name. 

I felt the need to point these two facts out as it seems most people all over the internet mistakenly take it for granted that GRRM both confirmed Lyanna as Jon's mother and confirmed RLJ. Neither is true.

Regardless of the theory, ASOIAF theory crafters should do their best to base their theories as solidly in Book Canon as possible. Otherwise all they're doing is putting duct tape on a snowman.
 

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5 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

But Winter is coming, my Lord! The snows will last through the Long Night and so their duct tape with it.

Wellp, once you base stuff on the popularly named 'mummers version'? 

Don't you mean the Short Night?

Muahahah. I'm melting!!

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3 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Makes me think that I'd LOVE to see Izembaro's theater troupe playing the last episodes!

Just add poop and farts to the tits and cocks. That wig art, tho...

Hey! That'd be awesome!

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32 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

• fTyrion: who has a better story than Bran the Broken?

• Braavosi crowd: BWA AH AH AH AH (hats thrown in the air, crude jokes etc.)

Wait...

(Recalls watching final episode)

Oh!

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On 6/11/2019 at 7:21 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Apologies if this was discussed already, but does anyone have any ideas as to how present Daenerys connects to the first Daenerys, who died of the shivers? Fire & Blood contained a lot of parallels for season eight: Elissa Farman sailing west, a Great Council, Rhaenyra's fall from grace, etc. George retconned Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children so that their first daughter was now named Daenerys, and died of the shivers, so I had taken this to mean that Dany would die fighting the White Walkers. 

That or that Dany would die in winter and/or in the arms of a Stark.

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On 6/10/2019 at 4:11 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

There's not much hope in this ending. I agree that Martin does not deconstruct tropes, he reconstructs them - however, the point of reconstruction is that the process of getting to the trope still makes sense and is delivered realistically. I think this ending, if it is GRRM's, is quite nihilistic, delivered unrealistically, and confirms the worst of the fantasy tropes that the author claims to critique. Most of these fatal flaws in the story center on Jon, Bran, and Tyrion.

- Jon's ending is SUPER SAD and sets the tone of the entire story IMO. Jon is shuttled off to the Night's Watch, disinherited, and returns to a place where Catelyn wanted him to go. So Cat was right, Jon doesn't belong as a member of the Stark family? Also, it's unclear if the NW even serves a purpose anymore. He could just as well help the wildlings as a king or a lord - after all, aren't people supposed to be integrated rather than ostracized (GRRM is very pro-immigration). I dont think Jon actually liked the NW as an institution, and the "band of brothers" ideal went sour once they turned on him. Jon lives by his own code which is usually correct. I thought he needed the freedom to make his own decisions as ruler. Jon being king would be reconstructed Aragorn and would make perfect sense. Instead we get...

- Bran the tree wizard ascends to the throne, because it was "destined" and he "foresaw" it. We have no idea what Bran's tax policy would be, the ruling experience he has amounts to a small scene when he greets Meera and Jojen. He's implicated so much in the magical aspects of Westeros that it would be like a younger Elrond becoming king at the end of LOTR, out of nowhere.

- Jon's character experiences massive injustice at Tyrion's expense. Jon is a kinslayer and killed his lover. Tyrion did the same. Tyrion gets off scott free, gets to do what he enjoys - playing the game and being Hand. Who knows, he may even be heir to Casterly Rock. Gets to father children. Gets to fuck whores, ect. ect. Jon meanwhile is condemned to celibacy even though he wants a son so badly he involuntarily wargs into his wolf (his Stark side).

The only hopeful thing I see in this ending is, Ghost lives. That just isn't enough to feel hopeful, and it completely misses the LOTR catharsis. 

I think Jon's ending sort of echoes Frodo from LOTR, or at least would have if D&D hadn't botched it. He echoes Frodo in that he saves the realm but not for himself, and has to leave in order to find peace because he's been so wounded by his experiences. Frodo does get a happy ending in the end; sure, he doesn't get to stay in the shire, which is sad, but he's going somewhere he can find peace. Maybe after the white walkers are defeated, north of the wall becomes a place where Jon can find peace, not having any responsibilities and not having to answer to anyone. The scene between him and Ygritte in the cave may be foreshadowing his ending. Maybe this is what GRRM is going for but D&D botched it by having Jon be a character who doesn't make any decisions for himself anymore and just does what other people tell him. In the books, he will probably choose to go north of the wall himself.

Bran's ending, I agree, I can't see how GRRM could consider that a happy ending for Westeros. Westeros is the central character of this story and the one that really should get a happy ending, if all the sacrifice and death throughout the story is to be worth it. But how is an all-seeing god-king on the throne a happy ending? He knows all his subject's secrets and can spy on them at any time. Sounds more like the beginning of a dystopian science fiction. Maybe GRRM will make it work. He certainly won't end up king because of some half-baked election. Maybe a Great Council will be involved but it will be a GREAT council of lords, not a dozen or so randoms.

Tyrion's ending, I think we should have seen that coming. Tyrion has always been compared to Richard III, and GRRM has admitted to being a Ricardian, in that he believes Richard III was framed for the murder of the princes, and would have been a great ruler (he may have been being tongue-in-cheek when he said that Richard was framed, but I definitely get the impression he admires him), so I guess Tyrion's fate is a sort of wish fulfilment for GRRM, in terms of how he wishes Richard III's story had gone.

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Posted (edited)

“What will we do tomorrow? What will we do when we are really put to the test? I’m putting all of my characters to the test, to see which ones rise to the occasion and which ones fall.” 

- George R.R. Martin, 2017 (x)

Sansa rose to the occasion by standing against Dany, Dany did not rise in the end. I think Jon failed by thinking he knew Dany when indeed he did not, but he rose to the occasion in the end to do what had to be done. Arya came out of this really well considering where she's at right now in the Mercy chapter - sheesh. I'm so happy she helped people escape from the massacre instead of going after Cersei. Tyrion's line about freeing his brother while Dany slaughtered a city was his best moment (I cheered when he threw the pin on the ground). Theon passed but I really didn't like Bran's line that he was a good person - pure treacle. I also think Arianne will pass the test but the the most vengeful Sand Snakes obviously won't. Jaime ended up being the "mad, bad, and dangerous to know" Byronic hero. He's beyond any test. By what right does the author judge the lion? heh

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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