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Fragile Bird

US Politics: What goes up, must come down!

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It's not even just the wealth part of the equation either, I think it explains a large part of the disconnect on health care. If you believe that someone's illness is a punishment from God then treating their illness is interfering with His will etc. They know that doesn't play well though so stick to the cost argument

3 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

That brand of religion is so bizarre to me that it's like it comes from an alien world. 

You and me both

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33 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, what are you talking about? Trump got almost precisely the same amount of votes in almost precisely the same places as McCain and Romney did. What 3 million votes are you even referring to? 

Typically, presidential candidates get far more votes than their party does in congressional races.  Aside from Trump, the smallest difference in the 21st century is Romney getting 2.7 million more votes than the GOP house and the largest difference is McCain getting 7.7 million more votes.  Trump actually under preformed the GOP house races by 200,000 votes.  The GOP actually beat the Democrats in the house popular vote in 2016.

 

So where'd all those extra GOP votes for president go?  Evan McMullins ran as an independent Republican in 11 states and received 700,000 votes (most notably in Utah where he received 21% of the vote, which is way Romney is willing to cross Trump while other Republican senators are afraid to) and to Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson.  In 2012, Johnson got 1.3 million votes.  In 2016, Johnson got 4.5 million votes.

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11 hours ago, Ormond said:

I am sorry for your personal economic struggles. Your own analysis of the economy may well be correct.

But you would seem to just be empirically wrong in refusing to believe that most Americans think the economy is good. Here is a link to the Gallup polls on the economy over the years:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1609/consumer-views-economy.aspx

As you will see if you look at the above, the latest figures from January 2020 show 62% think the economy is "good" or "excellent"; 59% think the economy is "getting better"; 68% think it's "a good time to find a quality job".

Maybe those aren't the best questions to ask on this issue. But unless I get shown data from scientific pollsters that support your contention, you aren't going to convince me that most Americans now think the economy is bad, no matter how many say they are "living paycheck to paycheck." It would seem you are assuming that most people have your beliefs about the economy without having the data to back that up.

Again, your beliefs may well be the correct ones. But unfortunately it's what people believe, not what's correct, that will influence their votes.

Don’t polls tend to show that Americans thinking the economy is doing better under Republicans (regardless of data showing that over the last century American economies grow more under Democrats) a long-standing thing? Isn’t the average person-in-the-street perception still that Republicans care more about hard unsentimental issues like the deficit and so forth, again regardless of accuracy?

Edited by James Arryn

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30 minutes ago, Zorral said:

70% are not happy, not by a frackin' long shot.

The people who are happy with it are very well off and smugly think they are safe from everything.  Most people are very insecure and anxious for very good reasons, starting with, o, just say, one serious illness, that will lose them their homes, their jobs and everything.  You just don't understand what this country really is going through.

Also we come at you because you seem to believe that despite everything we have been posting here for years that we don't care.

You're like the guy in the virus thread who goes silly because we in the USA take it pretty badly that the Trumpistas have just told us we have nothing to worry about from the virus, while anybody competent and with ideas and expertise to deal with it were fired by him long ago. Why are you dragging trump into this discussion, he howls like a banshee.

But don't worry, like Warren and Castro and Booker, Bernie shall be taken out and it the election will be safe for billionaire old white men.

I was only quoting the poll that Ormond quoted. Mind you, I think people were asked if it was a Good Economy, and I said people were happy with the economy. If people say it's a good economy I assume they mean they are happy with it.

People are worried everywhere. In Canada people are worried they will lose their houses if there's a downturn. As I said previously, we did not have a housing crisis in Canada because our mortgage rules are tighter (no damn way will a balloon payment ever exist here). So Canadians are carrying way more debt than Americans and are more vulnerable, just not to medical bills. Getting sick though might still mean you lose your job and then your house.

As for 'we don't care', you are taking things too personally. Never did I say you personally didn't care. I said you, Americans. And if Americans cared things would be different. That I firmly believe. Kalbear and karaddin have both given good reasons why that is.

Oh, and James Arryn just quoted Ormond, and I see it's 62% who think the economy is 'good' or 'excellent', 68% (which I rounded up to 70) think it's a good time to find a quality job. I confused the numbers.

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9 hours ago, Ormond said:

I have already pointed out statistics where that show I agree that Simon is projecting his own situation onto others. But I'm sorry, for you to attribute his own situation to "poor life planning" is unwarranted and insulting and I think you should apologize to him. 

I disagree that I'm projecting anything. I'm fairly well off considered to many Americans, and that's the point, that's shitty. You noted the polls don't potentially ask the right questions, and I think that's absolutely true. The results from Pew research center show that when asked meaningful questions, a significant number of Americans see the economy as "good" only for the rich, that lower income brackets are in significant trouble, etc.

I appreciate you asking for an apology, I really do, but it's not necessary. I am not bothered by the comment you're referencing. Politics are so emotional to many of us--I know I've lost my cool before. But I do appreciate you trying to keep things civil--it's a good reminder.

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Watching this debate and Biden's answer about covid-19 was barely coherent and the part about insisting that the US would tell China it needs to be in their country and involved was... Not reassuring.

The earlier part about ebola might have just been exaggerating the scale, but that later part with that tone doesn't have a good interpretation.

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Because Americans have a lot of really stupid shit going for them.

  • They believe in self-reliance vs. government reliance and largely hate the government doing anything new. Once they GET that policy they tend to like it, but until then? Fuck off.
  • They believe strongly in the version of the American Dream which says that they will be rich if they just work hard. They have been sold this bullshit for generations, mostly by the inheritors of wealth who want to keep them in line.
  • They believe strongly in party identity, and if that party tells them that healthcare is bad, or that socialism is bad, they believe it.
  • They strongly believe that if your life sucks, it is entirely your fault. That is true for anyone outside their social circles, and oftentimes inside it. If you go to jail, if you are poor, if you are hungry, homeless, on drugs, uneducated - all of these things are your fault. And this is even worse, because they'll also blame themselves if things go to shit. 
  • Finally, for the most part white Americans do not protest, because protesting is something minorities do, and they do it wrongly. They just suck it up and deal. 

Basically most Americans don't find it absurdly offensive that the rich are so insanely rich, and most think that that is actually good. And that's really the rub. The inequality that most Americans see every single day, deal with every single day, is just not that offensive to them. 

These Americans you're describing sound like idiots and assholes.  

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2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Just wanted to make clear that I'm not saying the rest of the world should be doing anything, just have compassion for the poor people in America that have never voted for the Republicans, are absolutely fucked by the current state of affairs and may be voting Bernie in the primary because they want change.

A huge number of them are people of colour, there are probably more poor black Americans than there are Australians or Canadians and they do not deserve to be blamed for Trump any more than non Americans. A lot of them aren't voting Bernie anyway though - they have low expectations of their fellow Americans and want to get rid of the corrupt fascist as much as anyone.

I appreciate it--some of the stuff I see lately shows me there is a true lack of solidarity. Oh, it's worse somewhere else. Oh, America has an amazing economy. Discounting the very true experiences of many Americans who are a moment away from financial devastation, but oh, the rich are doing great, so there's that. I don't care how well off people are, they should care about the shitty conditions of their neighbors.

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2 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Oh please, don’t be shy! Of course Canadians understand there are many poor Americans. Certainly in the circles I hang out in we all understand income inequality is a far more serious problem in the US than it is in Canada. That doesn’t change the fact that the US has the world’s best economy. As many Americans love to say, and I don’t just mean Trump, millions of people want to immigrate to the US.

What we don’t understand is why Americans don’t want to change the way things are for the better when there is sooooo much bloody wealth in the US. Can you please explain that? Please?

I have already mentioned the fact that I see discussions on Facebook where friends of friends say no damn way are they going to pay for health care for other people.

Um, that's literally the entire point of every argument in this thread. You're chief among those arguing against our delusional fantasies of income reform.

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2 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I appreciate it--some of the stuff I see lately shows me there is a true lack of solidarity. Oh, it's worse somewhere else. Oh, America has an amazing economy. Discounting the very true experiences of many Americans who are a moment away from financial devastation, but oh, the rich are doing great, so there's that. I don't care how well off people are, they should care about the shitty conditions of their neighbors.

I overheard a guy at lunch today say "it doesn't effect me, so I don't care."  It was about a fairly specific issue, but it was one where there were quite a lot of people in a situation barely removed from his, and I was bit galled by how casually this guy revealed this stance.  

Edited by Triskele

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1 minute ago, Triskele said:

I overheard a guy at lunch today say "it doesn't effect me, so I don't care."  It was about a fairly specific issue, but it was one where there were quite a lot of people in a situation barely removed from his, and I was bit galled by how casually this guy revealed this stance.  

I've seen this a lot too. When I was younger, I got angry. Now I just get kind of sad.

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Many on this thread seem to have their heads in the clouds about how this will all be perceived by the middle and also about what the Republicans will do with this data in a general elections.

I highly doubt that, but I'm sure you can address whoever has their heads in the clouds directly to make it clear who exactly you are trying to convince.
 

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

This is right along @Jace, Basilissa's longstanding thing about liberals supporting doomed causes. Why is it so fucking noble to get your ass kicked in the service of being the most pure? Stop trying to nurse that fucking goshawk to life and start supporting people who can actually win.

You're barking up the wrong tree. I personally don't "win" much with Trump simply losing. In order for me to "win" anything significant I need someone who can truly turn the US around.
The whole talk about capitalism, socialism, inequalities... etc, is already old. I use the codewords and play by the rules, because I know how to do it and it's part of my job, but this is a debate from last century already. At this point I'm truly not sure that "middle-grounds" are enough against climate change.
Radicalism used to be an intellectual perspective for the idealists and the desperate. But now? I'm not so sure it's just about "being the most pure." A 16Tn$ plan doesn't sound like a jello number to me, but like a decent start. Sure, I love Bernie's socialism and activism, but I've also already moved past that. I would even listen if it were Ivanka talking about spending trillions to do something serious about it, I'm that far gone. And if bloody Bloomberg was actually ambitious about it instead of pretending, perhaps I would be defending him instead of Bernie.
And see, it took me a moment to put my finger on it, but now I've realized why I was a bit suspicious of Warren. It's because I'm not certain that humanity can deal with climate change without doing away with capitalism. I'm starting to think the system needs more than a nice bandaid: it needs amputation. Hence why it took me DMC's answer to admit that Warren was the better candidate (though that was still before our exchanges iirc).
Take a step back and ask yourself who's supporting a "doomed cause" here. Is it the people who think that capitalism can be fixed, or is it the people who think capitalism must be destroyed? Trump isn't a bug of this system, he's a fucking feature. Replce him and sooner or later someone else will come along, that's already what Bloomberg is trying to do. I'm not 16 anymore dreaming of a glorious revolution for the workers, I'm 36 and dreaming of a revolution to save our species from itself. And from a European perspective nothing can be done until the US takes the lead on this. Not pretending like all the "moderates" do, not paying lip-service to the idea like my own fucking president, but actually taking the lead and getting shit done right now. Anything less than trillions of dollars is a joke at this point.
And you know what? I don't think I care that much if whoever goes there has an authoritarian streak. That might be what it'll take. Maybe the only way the rich and powerful finally shut down the coal plants and factories is if they're all rounded up at gunpoint and taken to the gulags where they will cultivate organic food and make wicker baskets for the masses.

See Jace? That's how you get scary. You start talking about what it takes. I guarantee, when you do that, people start being uncomfortable real fast.

Edited by Rippounet

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20 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Take a step back and ask yourself who's supporting a "doomed cause" here. Is it the people who think that capitalism can be fixed, or is it the people who think capitalism must be destroyed? Trump isn't a bug of this system, he's a fucking feature. Replce him and sooner or later someone else will come along, that's already what Bloomberg is trying to do.

Finally! Somebody nails it.

#bloombisthesamething

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3 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

See Jace? That's how you get scary. Not with that little bourgeois cynicism of yours. You start talking about what it takes. I guarantee, when you do that, people start being uncomfortable real fast.

And how exactly are your fantasies going to come to pass here again?

 Dude, if you think I wouldn't want an appropriately motivated and vetted Despot, you're wrong. Bernie Sanders just ain't that dude, and if America is going to empower a dictator it won't be one of the guys we'd want.

There's no version of a socialist anti-capitalist America that takes the lead on climate change. Stop wanting that, because you're not going to get it. The facts, the fucking reality of the situation, is that liberalism is crumbling everywhere that matters geopolitically. So instead of pinning everything on fantasies of a workers' revolution that starts in America of all places, where the laziest, stupidest, and most unmotivated humans on earth reside, maybe want something more achievable.

 

 

Edited by Jace, Basilissa

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You know shits fucked up when people are advocating authoritarianism to drive a revolution and ignoring 2000 years of the same thing happening... dictator or monarch comes into power, friends of dictator or monarch prosper, everyone else suffers, people die, dictator or monarch rules until overthrown after countless atrocities. Yup, that’s the answer to our prayers. Bring it on. We deserve what we get.

Edited by Mexal

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This debate was a hellhole and it's pretty much being universally critcized. If anything it probably solidified the truth that anybody with a pulse should have saw coming when this race started. It's coming down to Sanders vs Biden. Post debate polls are showing that most people are saying they "won". Bernie got hit but nothing major like Kamala did to Biden or Gabbard to Kamala. Biden looked half decent which means he likely does well in SC and a few of the more Southern states on Super Tuesday to keep him viable. When the dust clears next Tuesday, Bernie should have a lead and Biden whould be the only one with a shot to beat him. Buttigieg, Klobuchar and Warren should drop the hell out. Then in the end it really comes down to Bloomberg's ego. 

Will be interesting to see. Sanders vs Biden is easily the most even match up they probably have. 

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