Covid-19 #27: A Handful of Stars, A Fistful of Dollars

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

These disorders, though rare, tend to be more common in women..... 

Interesting.  

I wonder is there a blood disorder that affects people of Nordic descent also?  Despite everything, Finland decided today to stop using AZ after 2 new incidents.  Joining Denmark, Norway and Sweden, which seem to have a higher rate of these blood clot issues than other countries.  Most other countries in Europe have resumed using AZ.

Norway has reported 6 incidents out of 120k vaccines, with 2 fatalities.  All reasonably young people I believe.

This article and this one gives more information.

What seems to have disturbed people is that while blood clots are generally rare, these type of blood clots are extra rare.

[Fragile Bird]

That sucks. How much Pfizer will they get? I hope they ordered other vaccines.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

2 hours ago, Padraig said:

Interesting.  

I wonder is there a blood disorder that affects people of Nordic descent also?  Despite everything, Finland decided today to stop using AZ after 2 new incidents.  Joining Denmark, Norway and Sweden, which seem to have a higher rate of these blood clot issues than other countries.  Most other countries in Europe have resumed using AZ.

Norway has reported 6 incidents out of 120k vaccines, with 2 fatalities.  All reasonably young people I believe.

This article and this one gives more information.

What seems to have disturbed people is that while blood clots are generally rare, these type of blood clots are extra rare.

Antiphospholipid is like 1:200K, I think, but all connected together in a poorly understood suite of autoimmune thingamagummies (like Lupus, Sjogren’s, etc. - usually they arrive together and their manifestation gives their name).  To Fury’s point, while susceptibility to autoimmune diseases generally appear to have some heritability, my understanding is that the manifestation is not necessarily the same, and that research in the area is very much lacking.  

[rotting sea cow]

9 hours ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I think with this small number of possibly linked clotting cases, it’s kind of silly the panic I’ve seen. Hormonal birth control causes a much much higher incidence of blood clots than we’re talking about and that’s just part of what you gotta weigh against the benefits. Seems like just a risk warning and further study will do

Maybe, it hasn't been communicated clearly. These events aren't normal thrombosis. It's a very rare combination of blood clots and low platelets counts. Treating one side of the spectrum worsen the other. The risk assessment has been also communicated in a wrong manner as the affected population are mostly young women, a population less affected by severe COVID. So, how much are the odds in comparison? one per million, per ten thousands or higher? It isn't clear now. Of course one needs to wonder if the persons affected by this condition are also at higher risk of severe COVID. 

Anyway. The Germans have found a treatment for this condition and confirmed a link with the vaccine (see below too). We just need a way to identify the susceptible individuals before and better surveillance for the onset the condition. Some interesting paragraph

 

Quote

 

The vaccination probably leads to antibody formation against platelet antigens as part of the inflammatory reaction and immune stimulation. These antibodies then induce a massive platelet activation in analogy to heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT), dependent or independent of heparin via the Fc receptor. This mechanism (HIT mimicry) could be demonstrated in four patients with sinus/brain vein thrombosis after vaccination with the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in the laboratory of Andreas Greinacher in cooperation with other GTH members. As in classical HIT, these antibodies appear 4-16 days after vaccination. This pathomechanism does not exclude other causes of sinus/brain vein thrombosis after vaccination with the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, but it forms the basis for the following updated findings:

In cases of thrombocytopenia and/or evidence of thrombosis, testing for heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT) should be performed regardless of prior heparin exposure. This test is based on the immunological detection of antibodies against the complex of platelet factor 4 (PF4) and heparin.

In patients with confirmed autoimmune HIT and critical thromboses such as sinus/brain vein thrombosis, the prothrombotic pathomechanism can most likely be interrupted by the administration of high-dose intravenous immunoglobulins (IVIG), e.g. at a dosage of 1 g/kg body weight per day for two consecutive days.

 

https://gth-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/GTH_Stellungnahme_AstraZeneca_3_19032021.pdf

All of this at dashing speed and it's being broadcasted to all hospitals. Isn't that great?

 

 

[RhaenysBee]

Beyond the new wave of hopelessness (caused by vaccine controversy, long term covid effects, new variants, wave 3 stats, etc), I have so many general questions. 

Got tested today to see if I’m negative already. And an antibody test to see if I developed antibodies. Lady tells me it’s possible to not develop antibodies if you had COVID and that means you can get it back any day. In basic biology terms, HOW? How did I even recover from covid if not with antibodies my immune system produced? I don’t get it.  

The a friend tells me that people who contract covid a second time - thus far I had been under the impression that this is very rare, but now it’s talked about as a common occurrence - become much more ill than they did the first time. So do what’s the chance that you catch it twice? And how likely is it to be something that you catch regularly as you do a common cold? With the long term effects covid has on the body, wouldn’t this mean that the virus will just circulate around until everybody gets blood clots and diabetes and aneurism and liver failure and we all die out?

Also at some point the narrative was that getting over covid was, at least, not 100% shit. Because it’d mean short term immunity and it’d strengthen the body for the minuscule chance of another infection. Now I here the straight opposite. There’s literally no benefit, no stronger immune response, no lower chance of contraction, no nothing. In that case, what’s the point of the immunity pass we are getting around here? Isn’t it the top of irresponsibility to say, ok, you can do what you want for 6 months after you had covid when the reality is that you aren’t one bit more protected than anybody else, you just have the added risk of developing long term health issues? 

And like what, now I’m supposed to watch out for blood clots and diabetes and liver failure and lung disease every day for the rest of my life because I can never know what COVID did to my system or when I’ll get it back? 

And who out there knows the answers to these questions? I know that GPs are entirely incompetent and I trust nothing news sites publish so are there answers in the universe, or you know, we are as clueless as we were 100 years ago with Spanish flu and all the technological and medical development was for naught against the force of nature?

 

[rotting sea cow]

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Beyond the new wave of hopelessness (caused by vaccine controversy, long term covid effects, new variants, wave 3 stats, etc), I have so many general questions. 

Got tested today to see if I’m negative already. And an antibody test to see if I developed antibodies. Lady tells me it’s possible to not develop antibodies if you had COVID and that means you can get it back any day. In basic biology terms, HOW? How did I even recover from covid if not with antibodies my immune system produced? I don’t get it.  

The immune system is more than antibodies. There are the T-cells and also moucosal immunity that apparently play also a big role. I haven't seen anything correlating antibodies levels with reinfection risk. Maybe the British have some stats regarding NHS workers.

 

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

The a friend tells me that people who contract covid a second time - thus far I had been under the impression that this is very rare, but now it’s talked about as a common occurrence - become much more ill than they did the first time.

I haven't seen that either. I'm under the impression is not the case.

A friend of mine claims he was reinfected in October. He's from Madrid and got infected in April last year. He wasn't tested because situation was chaotic, so there is no confirmation. He was tested in October and became positive. The testing team claimed there were hundred of similar cases but I have never seen theses stats. Both courses of disease were quite light.

 

 

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

So do what’s the chance that you catch it twice?

This article claims that the protection from previous infection is about 80%. As good as any vaccine but plainly far riskier.  Even for young individuals. I think there are similar stats with NHS workers.

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

And how likely is it to be something that you catch regularly as you do a common cold? With the long term effects covid has on the body, wouldn’t this mean that the virus will just circulate around until everybody gets blood clots and diabetes and aneurism and liver failure and we all die out?

I was also somewhat depressed when I learned the news of re-infection. I also read some articles that claimed that SARS-CoV-2 could do weird things to the body. I'm not sure how often these things are occurring in real life. It seems it correlates with disease severity. Vaccines should protect also from the worse.

There is of course the issue with variants...

 

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Also at some point the narrative was that getting over covid was, at least, not 100% shit. Because it’d mean short term immunity and it’d strengthen the body for the minuscule chance of another infection. Now I here the straight opposite. There’s literally no benefit, no stronger immune response, no lower chance of contraction, no nothing.

Different aspect of immunity seem to last many months after infection and vaccines will certainly help, but see below.

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

In that case, what’s the point of the immunity pass we are getting around here? Isn’t it the top of irresponsibility to say, ok, you can do what you want for 6 months after you had covid when the reality is that you aren’t one bit more protected than anybody else, you just have the added risk of developing long term health issues? 

I agree. I think the Green Pass or whatever is called is a mistake that might blow into our faces in the near future. For this and other reasons. I want to write about it but I need to collect links.

 

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

And like what, now I’m supposed to watch out for blood clots and diabetes and liver failure and lung disease every day for the rest of my life because I can never know what COVID did to my system or when I’ll get it back? 

No. Don't worry too much. Treat it like you had the flu. I got the flu last year and took me like two months to feel myself again. I know about two dozens of people who have recovered successfully from covid. I know a few who got it bad and are still dealing with problems.

 

37 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

And who out there knows the answers to these questions? I know that GPs are entirely incompetent and I trust nothing news sites publish so are there answers in the universe, or you know, we are as clueless as we were 100 years ago with Spanish flu and all the technological and medical development was for naught against the force of nature?

No. See my post above. There have hardly two weeks since the scary reports about the AZ vaccine came out and despite all the fuss and political grandstanding, researchers worked around the clock, found the mechanism and develop a treatment.

We know a lot of things but it's still clear we don't know even more.

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Well the government has decided that we are officially in the 3rd wave. The UK mutation is the main variant detected especially in Vienna(~90%) and ICU case numbets are growing way too fast again. 

A local far right politican who attended a party with 30 people had time to post that he only got a mild case before going to the hospital "just in case" . He is in the ICU now. One could call it karma... But it is just sad in the end because we will never contain it because of these fuckwads. 

[Raja]

19 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Although, there has been evidence in the past that some form of viruses can trigger type I diabetes (in that sense I'd quibble with the headline a bit because 'cause' is a loaded term when it comes to scientific hypotheses), so this isnt totally left-field.

I already have diabeetus so at least that's one thing I dont have to worry about regarding COVID.

Something to consider here is the treatment for covid. If you have COVID and require oxygen, you will be given dexamethasone. Dex, a steroid, will cause hyperglycemia and raise your blood sugars, likely throughout your hospital stay. If someone's pre-diabetic, something like a course of Dex for 10 days ( the standard course) will likely push them to developing diabetes.

And for diabetics, it can make their DM worse ( hopefully not permanently and their blood sugars recover after the dex is stopped) and in some cases shift them into DKA.

I'd be curious about direct causation from the virus, haven't read too much about that yet.

[Luzifer's right hand]

44 minutes ago, Raja said:

Something to consider here is the treatment for covid. If you have COVID and require oxygen, you will be given dexamethasone. Dex, a steroid, will cause hyperglycemia and raise your blood sugars, likely throughout your hospital stay. If someone's pre-diabetic, something like a course of Dex for 10 days ( the standard course) will likely push them to developing diabetes.

And for diabetics, it will likely make their DM worse and possible shift them into DKA.

I'd be curious about direct causation from the virus, haven't read too much about that yet.

An uncle of mine had previously undiscovered diabetes that was discovered when he was admitted for Covid-19. It worsened really quickly and he needs insulin now. That explanation makes a lot of sense.

[Padraig]

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway. The Germans have found a treatment for this condition and confirmed a link with the vaccine (see below too). We just need a way to identify the susceptible individuals before and better surveillance for the onset the condition. Some interesting paragraph

That's great.  Very impressive.  Amazing what people can do in a week!

Curious to know your views on the Green Pass also.

3 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Well the government has decided that we are officially in the 3rd wave. The UK mutation is the main variant detected especially in Vienna(~90%) and ICU case numbets are growing way too fast again. 

I noticed that the fatality rate has gone up in Austria.  In the EU as a whole, it is effectively flat but as cases continue to rise, that is probably going to change also.  Very sad.  I really hope we'll see the expected big increase in vaccinations in April!  Maybe even from the end of March.

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 minute ago, Padraig said:

I noticed that the fatality rate has gone up in Austria.  In the EU as a whole, it is effectively flat but as cases continue to rise, that is probably going to change also.  Very sad.  I really hope we'll see the expected big increase in vaccinations in April!  Maybe even from the end of March.

We hit 400 people in ICUs again today. Back when he hit that first last year there were way more positive tests than now and test positively rate was also far higher. There are also fewer people in hospital in general. It seems to speak for the increased severity of the UK mutation.

People are protesting against the covid19 measures in Vienna again today although not as many as last time. Maybe the far light politician ending up in the ICU a few days after posting about his mild case and that restrictions for non-risk groups(he is a 41 year old with no known health problems) should be lifted opened the eyes of a few people.  The Jewish community has warned its members because the far right people those protests attract have interacted with some of its members in the expected manner in the past. 

 

[Xray the Enforcer]

wanted to come back to something @Fury Resurrected mentioned a few threads ago regarding getting vaccinated as someone with a fucked-up immune system.

So, I got my second Pfizer dose on Thursday morning and surprisingly I also had a milder (but still kinda rough) reaction to the second dose.

For my first dose, I got all the side-effects that people usually get on the second dose but somehow worse: I felt truly awful for 36 hours, then just shitty for a further five days, including my upper arm being very hot, swollen, and sore for almost a full week post-shot PLUS I had a flare of all of these symptoms of my chronic illness that are usually suppressed by medication, which I was (and am) still taking.

For my second dose, I felt awful for about 36 hours post-shot (the standard body aches, fever, vicious headache, mild queasiness) and then all of those effects just...stopped. Like, at hour 37 it was all gone. At +50 hours, my arm is very slightly sore and warm to the touch. 

So, yeah. Those with really aggro immune systems might want to plan on both doses being bad, and then be pleasantly surprised if one or both end up being really mild. 

[ljkeane]

3 minutes ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

So, I got my second Pfizer dose on Thursday morning and surprisingly I also had a milder (but still kinda rough) reaction to the second dose.

That's good. Apparently with Pfizer it's generally the second dose people have the worse reaction to so I did think it might be unpleasant for you when you mentioned you'd had a bad reaction to the first dose. Good to here that it at least was an improvement.

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway. The Germans have found a treatment for this condition and confirmed a link with the vaccine (see below too). We just need a way to identify the susceptible individuals before and better surveillance for the onset the condition. Some interesting paragraph

Quote

 

The vaccination probably leads to antibody formation against platelet antigens as part of the inflammatory reaction and immune stimulation. These antibodies then induce a massive platelet activation in analogy to heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT), dependent or independent of heparin via the Fc receptor. This mechanism (HIT mimicry) could be demonstrated in four patients with sinus/brain vein thrombosis after vaccination with the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine in the laboratory of Andreas Greinacher in cooperation with other GTH members. As in classical HIT, these antibodies appear 4-16 days after vaccination. This pathomechanism does not exclude other causes of sinus/brain vein thrombosis after vaccination with the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, but it forms the basis for the following updated findings:

In cases of thrombocytopenia and/or evidence of thrombosis, testing for heparin-induced thrombocytopenia (HIT) should be performed regardless of prior heparin exposure. This test is based on the immunological detection of antibodies against the complex of platelet factor 4 (PF4) and heparin.

In patients with confirmed autoimmune HIT and critical thromboses such as sinus/brain vein thrombosis, the prothrombotic pathomechanism can most likely be interrupted by the administration of high-dose intravenous immunoglobulins (IVIG), e.g. at a dosage of 1 g/kg body weight per day for two consecutive days.

 

https://gth-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/GTH_Stellungnahme_AstraZeneca_3_19032021.pdf

All of this at dashing speed and it's being broadcasted to all hospitals. Isn't that great?

It is interesting, and great too - but this precautionary principle is costing lives from covid infections. I fear their diligence has destroyed confidence instead of boosting it.

Also, confirmed a link is too strong. The authors identify a mechanism, but also are careful to state other causes are still possible. (Warning! I'm no expert at all. But this is how I understood it.) The number of cases is still small, and small numbers can jump around.

[Padraig]

 

2 hours ago, Xray the Enforcer said:

So, I got my second Pfizer dose on Thursday morning and surprisingly I also had a milder (but still kinda rough) reaction to the second dose.

Better than expected is good!  So yay for that least.  Glad that you have it behind you too.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

It is interesting, and great too - but this precautionary principle is costing lives from covid infections. I fear their diligence has destroyed confidence instead of boosting it.

I don't look at this as a binary thing.  I'd be careful about reading media that insists it is.

Stopping AZ vaccinations has consequences.  Carrying on regardless has consequences too.  The argument is that the former has more significant consequences. 

Now this may assume that you can hide the reasons why you could stop vaccinating people?  And we know how well cover-ups go. 

Or perhaps you transparently explain the truth to people, that there seems to be very serious side effects with some people.  "We don't know much about it but we'll carry on until we know more".  Will this frighten people who are due a vaccine tomorrow?  Some wouldn't care but some definitely will.

Or you stop vaccinating for a brief time.  Show that you are taking threats seriously.  (Even discover a treatment).  And then resume.  Will people still hesitate?  Sure.  But being transparent and cautious has advantages also.  Nobody lightly took this option.

I don't want to suggest that one method is unequivocally the best approach.  It depends on the actual symptoms.  In this case, they were very unusual (and serious).  Just because a vaccine has gone through a trial doesn't mean it is 100% safe (as much as we'd love it to be true).

And yes, we still don't know for sure whether there is a direct link with AZ but the research seems to be moving in that direction.

I've said this before but there are some truly badly written articles out there.  The Guardian managed another terrible article yesterday.  This article from the NY Times isn't particularly flattering of the EU (and I don't agree with everything) but there is truth in there.  The amount of badly written stuff continues to amaze me though.

2 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

We hit 400 people in ICUs again today. Back when he hit that first last year there were way more positive tests than now and test positively rate was also far higher. There are also fewer people in hospital in general. It seems to speak for the increased severity of the UK mutation.

Makes sense.  Any advantage from vaccination (sadly) ruined by variants!

[Filippa Eilhart]

Poland hadn’t stopped vaccinations and people who had appointments just stopped showing up en masse. Apparently 48% now will not take AZ.

[Zorral]

Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How It Changed the World (2017) by Laura Spinney.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Spinney

Published to observe the centenary of the Great Influenza pandemic of 1918. Too bad the editors slapped that exhausted ‘how it changed the world’ subtitle on the book, particularly when it didn’t really change the world, certainly not when it comes to how governments, groups and individuals react and behave in reaction to what is killing them right in front of their faces and inside their homes. Denial, denial, denial, and blame on somebody else, and it can't happen here, while refusing to follow safety protocols -- the same ones that have been proven to work since the days of Hippocrates.  Also, the stark exposure of the differences for survival between rich and poor.  The Great Influenza changed many individuals’ lives, but it changed nothing else -- particularly in the US, and little elsewhere either, as there was the Great War going on, and massive starvation and malnutrition in vast parts of the world, for years afterward.  It’s an excellent look at ‘the east’ and South America,, instead of staying entirely focused on Europe and the US.  That said, this book is more than worth reading in this environment, and though the world didn’t change, we, as individual readers, learn things we didn’t know before, even if we’ve read John M. Barry’s The Great Influenza (2004), and everything else since, that we can get our hands on.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jul/22/pale-rider-laura-spinney-review

~~~~~~~~~

In the meantime the experts are utterly baffled by NY's gov's opening up everything in NYC when over a 14 day period we've averaged never less than 3500 new cases per day, and hospitalizations and deaths are up, not only in the City but in several places throughout the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/20/nyregion/new-york-city-coronavirus-reopening.html?

Quote

 

The numbers might not be telling the whole story
Deaths and hospitalizations in the city have fallen in recent weeks, but newly reported cases in New York City are hovering at a 14-day average of more than 3,500 a day, which is still very high, according to a New York Times database.

Also, according to the city’s metrics, the seven-day average test positivity rate has remained above 6 percent for weeks. (The state, which uses a different methodology, has the city’s seven-day average positivity rate at slightly above 4 percent.)....

 

With all this rotten management of Covid revealed every frackin' day, along with his sexual harassment issues -- can he possibly wonder why NYC in particular is keen on getting him to resign or impeach him, and certainly to remove his covid-19 management emergency powers?

[IheartIheartTesla]

10 hours ago, Raja said:

Something to consider here is the treatment for covid. If you have COVID and require oxygen, you will be given dexamethasone. Dex, a steroid, will cause hyperglycemia and raise your blood sugars, likely throughout your hospital stay. If someone's pre-diabetic, something like a course of Dex for 10 days ( the standard course) will likely push them to developing diabetes.

And for diabetics, it can make their DM worse ( hopefully not permanently and their blood sugars recover after the dex is stopped) and in some cases shift them into DKA.

I'd be curious about direct causation from the virus, haven't read too much about that yet.

Yeah, right now it looks like a hypothesis people are bandying around. I would say that good datasets should be able to distinguish or screen out those whose diabetic symptoms were created from dexamethasone and those which were triggered by something else. Per the article the causation is surmised to be COVID + ACE2 targeting a bunch of organs including the pancreas, therefore disrupting sugar metabolism.

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, Padraig said:

Stopping AZ vaccinations has consequences.  Carrying on regardless has consequences too.  The argument is that the former has more significant consequences. 

Now this may assume that you can hide the reasons why you could stop vaccinating people?  And we know how well cover-ups go. 

Or perhaps you transparently explain the truth to people, that there seems to be very serious side effects with some people.  "We don't know much about it but we'll carry on until we know more".  Will this frighten people who are due a vaccine tomorrow?  Some wouldn't care but some definitely will.

Or you stop vaccinating for a brief time.  Show that you are taking threats seriously.  (Even discover a treatment).  And then resume.  Will people still hesitate?  Sure.  But being transparent and cautious has advantages also.  Nobody lightly took this option.

I don't want to suggest that one method is unequivocally the best approach.  It depends on the actual symptoms.  In this case, they were very unusual (and serious).  Just because a vaccine has gone through a trial doesn't mean it is 100% safe (as much as we'd love it to be true).

It's the politics and media, not the science, that worries me. To be fair, we were told in advance that vaccines have side effects; also that very rare side effects are unlikely to be picked up in trials, but would show when a vaccine is rolled out to millions. I find it reassuring when I'm treated honestly this way. And I'm also reassured that side effects are being carefully investigated by the scientists.

The problem is the decision to stop vaccinating.If I read the news right, it makes no difference if the vaccine caused the clots or not - it would be a very rare side-effect, and the result of the investigations was a foregone conclusion - the vaccine is safe and should be used. So who called a halt to the programme? It was an irrational decision. This, on top of the negative briefings dumped on AZ by politicians - it freaks me out; it feels like self-harm. (I have a worrying side to me, that is shouting a lot for attention nowadays...)

4 hours ago, Padraig said:

And yes, we still don't know for sure whether there is a direct link with AZ but the research seems to be moving in that direction.

The finer details get lost in the headlines. It's all 'AZ vaccine linked to blood clots', 'AZ vaccine halted for safety reasons', 'AZ under investigation' - you have to click through a bit to find the information that the overall occurrence of blood clots is still lower than expected, and the odds are overwhelmingly in favour of taking the vaccine. The headlines aren't false, but the volume is too loud - sort of unbalances the availability of information. No wonder people are afraid.

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

If I read the news right, it makes no difference if the vaccine caused the clots or not - it would be a very rare side-effect, and the result of the investigations was a foregone conclusion - the vaccine is safe and should be used. So who called a halt to the programme? It was an irrational decision.

Medical people stopped the vaccination.  I love how this has become a conspiracy theory.   "Some nebulous beings stopped the vaccination program because...something."  Conspiracy theories don't make a lot of sense.

I can include links to the German, Norwegian, Irish medical bodies etc. discussing this.  But really, its not that hard to find.  (There possibly was a political element when the last few countries suspended AZ because of a type of peer pressure, but the main decisions were all science lead).

So while the British media narrative is that it is irrational, I'd suggest digging deeper.

And while you think that the results were a foregone conclusion, the Nordic countries are still not convinced.  They continue to suspend AZ.  France has decided to use AZ for those over 55 (for now).  And as RSC reported, it gave scientists a chance to develop a treatment.

And going through the motions is actually a good thing. There has to be a point where you should suspend a vaccination program.  And that point shouldn't be where you are convinced there is a major problem.  The process was followed and we should be thankful the EMA didn't discover something more serious.  Although they did change the warnings on the vaccination to note these possible reactions.

But most importantly, you still seem convinced that people would have merrily carried on getting vaccinated if EU countries simply shrugged its shoulders at the news of these side effects.  It's important to note that almost 80% of the vaccines given in Ireland are not AZ.  That is not expected to change going forward.  The rest of the EU should be very similar.  So even if AZ takes a hit (hopefully not long term), people's faith in the overall vaccination program may be higher if it is shown that countries take significantly adverse side effects very seriously.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

The finer details get lost in the headlines. It's all 'AZ vaccine linked to blood clots', 'AZ vaccine halted for safety reasons', 'AZ under investigation' - you have to click through a bit to find the information that the overall occurrence of blood clots is still lower than expected, and the odds are overwhelmingly in favour of taking the vaccine. The headlines aren't false, but the volume is too loud - sort of unbalances the availability of information. No wonder people are afraid.

And you can't be subservient to the headlines.  If a scientist thinks "I know the right thing to do, but I'm afraid of bad headlines", we are doomed.  I'm not saying the media side should be ignored but you can't put the cart before the horse.

I need not add that those headlines would still have existed with or without the suspension.  If there wasn't a suspension, some people would simply think we are playing with their lives.  Money comes first.  Vaccinate them so they can work!

6 hours ago, Filippa Eilhart said:

Poland hadn’t stopped vaccinations and people who had appointments just stopped showing up en masse. Apparently 48% now will not take AZ.

Lets hope that confidence is regained after that initial shock.  I saw a survey in France also that was poor but it was taken in the midst of AZ's suspension.  It is where confidence goes now that is the question...