DUNE (Part 1 Spoilers and News)

[Kalbear]

Chani saying it can also just be a possible vision of what doesn't end up happening, a failure mode that Paul has to avoid - by presumably making sure chani stays on his side.

[Relic]

41 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Probably… but Chani being overtly aware of the Missionaria would be something new

well, they have to give Zendaya something to do, obviously. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

11 hours ago, Relic said:

Pretty sure its a reference by Chani to how the Benne Gesserit planted the seeds for controlling the Fremen via the Lisan al-Gaib prophesy, and the Missionaria Protectiva

Pretty sure the entire point of planting that prophecy is to make the Fremen genuinely believe in a Messiah so they’re easier to control…Chani being self aware of it would basically ruin the entire plot. Unless Paul tells her himself in the movie.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Probably… but Chani being overtly aware of the Missionaria would be something new

Maybe that's something Villeneuve decided to do in this film. I mean, if there are literally millions of Fremen, it would only make sense that some of them would be agnostic about the Lisan al Gaib.

ETA: There are already a few who are skeptical about Paul being "the one".

Edited December 14, 2023 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[Quijote Light]

Didn’t Villaneuve say that Chani would feature much more in this film? Maybe she’ll represent the part of Paul’s internal arguments against the jihad. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Quijote Light said:

Didn’t Villaneuve say that Chani would feature much more in this film? Maybe she’ll represent the part of Paul’s internal arguments against the jihad. 

Nah, she's the one egging him on. Chani is Fremen, Fremen, Fremen.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Quijote Light said:

against the jihad

I can bear mentions of "holy war" only so much in the movie. Political correctness, ugh. Herbert had it easy back then.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

13 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

I can bear mentions of "holy war" only so much in the movie. Political correctness, ugh. Herbert had it easy back then.

It’s worse, now it’s ‘crusades’ why do they need to westernise everything? Also the reason it was called Jihad in the first place is because it was hinted that the ancestors of the Fremen were indeed in some part descended from Arabs.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

It’s worse, now it’s ‘crusades’ why do they need to westernise everything?

Templar wording over Saracen is preferred huh...

White boy Villeneuve needs to get his act straight

[polishgenius]

 

They use crusade instead of jihad because in between Herbert writing the book and this film coming out, the cultural perception of 'jihad' got a whole new meaning to most of the expected audience, one that draws emotional responses it would've have back then. Using it no longer achieves what Herbert wanted it to. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

They use crusade instead of jihad because in between Herbert writing the book and this film coming out, the cultural perception of 'jihad' got a whole new meaning to most of the expected audience, one that draws emotional responses it would've have back then. Using it no longer achieves what Herbert wanted it to. 

Sure but it breaks the world building, the fremen were not descended from Western European knights.

[Myrddin]

Considering that the time that separates our current time from this fictional one by far exceeds our own recorded history, this seems like an odd hill to die on.

Language changes. Words that were taboo in my youth are now normalized. Other words that were thrown around without a care, are now verboten. 

Whether they say "holy war", "crusade", or "jihad", the spirt is the same: fanatics killing over belief.

[Heartofice]

I get why they moved away from the term 'Jihad', though I'd say the current understanding of the word still fits pretty well into what happens in Dune.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

though I'd say the current understanding of the word still fits pretty well into what happens in Dune.

 

It does, but if anything too well. Basically 'jihad' has come to have inherently antagonistic connotations to Western audiences. Whereas you're not supposed to think of the Fremen as antagonists. You could make a pretty strong argument that the existence of that perception is a problem, but it'd be asking a little much for Villeneuve to change it by himself. Which he'd have to do outside of the film, because using it for the jihad in the film would reinforce it if anything.

 

also:

 

9 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Also the reason it was called Jihad in the first place is because it was hinted that the ancestors of the Fremen were indeed in some part descended from Arabs.

 

This isn't even true. Yes, the Fremen have Arab descent and are obviously in part modelled on the Bedouin, and other words in the setting carry that implication, but the word 'jihad' is (1) used by non-Fremen Paul about his visions long before the jihad starts, and (2) used for the Butlerian Jihad, a conflict that had nothing to do with the Fremen and made the word ubiquitous in-universe because it's probably the most important event to ever happen. 

[Relic]

Let's not even get into how dumb it is that Herbert actually used the whole Fremen - Arab connection. Inspired fiction, that! This is actually one change im fully onboard with, even as a teenager I was confused by the use of the word Jihad in the novels. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

It’s worse, now it’s ‘crusades’ why do they need to westernise everything? Also the reason it was called Jihad in the first place is because it was hinted that the ancestors of the Fremen were indeed in some part descended from Arabs.

The Zensunni wanderers.  So… Bhuddist/Muslims.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 hours ago, Relic said:

Let's not even get into how dumb it is that Herbert actually used the whole Fremen - Arab connection. Inspired fiction, that! This is actually one change im fully onboard with, even as a teenager I was confused by the use of the word Jihad in the novels. 

I read Dune for the first time when I was 13 after the first attempt at a film came out.  “Jihad” didn’t bother me.

(I also know the difference between “lesser” and “greater” jihad.)

Edited December 14, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

17 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Chani being self aware of it would basically ruin the entire plot.

Well, at least in Chapter 37 of Dune, Chani too becomes a Reverend Mother (the Freeman equivalent of a Bene Gesserit) by drinking the spice potion with Jessica. A very great deal is revealed in that long scene in which Jessica changes the 'water' so it is safe for the tribe to drink it and have a big party.

There was the dying Freeman Reverend Mother, who enters Jessica's mind, and Jessica hers, so they have mutual access to the previous generational knowledge. And Jessica's unborn child, Paul's sister, becomes a part of it too.

 So ya, she does have foresight or whatever the culture calls the gift of prophecy.  She and Jessica are thus able to 'share' which is of importance in the novel.  Of course Chani knows.

Nor did the Bene Gesserit plant that concept in the Freeman for Them to control the Freeman per se, but to make a safety net for a potentially stranded Bene Gesserit.  Jessica explicitly says this in Dune. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Zorral

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Well, at least in Chapter 37 of Dune, Chani too becomes a Reverend Mother (the Freeman equivalent of a Bene Gesserit) by drinking the spice potion with Jessica. A very great deal is revealed in that long scene in which Jessica changes the 'water' so it is safe for the tribe to drink it and have a big party.

There was the dying Freeman Reverend Mother, who enters Jessica's mind, and Jessica hers, so they have mutual access to the previous generational knowledge. And Jessica's unborn child, Paul's sister, becomes a part of it too.

 So ya, she does have foresight or whatever the culture calls the gift of prophecy.  She and Jessica are thus able to 'share' which is of importance in the novel.  Of course Chani knows.

Nor did the Bene Gesserit plant that concept in the Freeman for Them to control the Freeman per se, but to make a safety net for a potentially stranded Bene Gesserit.  Jessica explicitly says this in Dune. 

I beg to differ.  Chani never becomes a “Reverend Mother”.  She doesn’t undergo “the agony” and obtain “other memory”.  She was Jessica’s second… willing to undergo “the Agony” if Jessica failed in her attempt.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

Doesn't Chani drink, as back-up in case Jessica's drinking failed. She was carrying the bag in which the Water of Life was contained, and gave it to the others.