Sansa and Cersei: Sides of the Same Coin

[Angel Eyes]

To quote a certain French "archaeologist", Cersei is a shadowy reflection of Sansa and it would only take a small nudge to make Sansa like Cersei (as evidenced with the show when Sansa marries Ramsay).

Both are daughters of a Warden, whose fathers were made Hand of the King to a King who was a close friend of said father. Each has a brother who joined a monastic warrior order who became its Lord Commander (Jon for Sansa, Jaime for Cersei), a younger sibling whom they quarrel with (Arya for Sansa, Tyrion for Cersei), and a younger brother who's crippled (Bran for Sansa, Tyrion again for Cersei. Both ladies had aspirations for being queen and were betrothed/married to royalty, but suffered abuse at their hands (Robert raped Cersei, Joffrey had Sansa beaten) which has left them decidedly jaded ("No one will marry me for love).") Sansa's subsequent husband and betrothed bear similarities to Cersei's husband Robert Baratheon; Tyrion is a hedonistic womanizer while Harry Hardyng is a womanizer who casts his illegitimate children aside and betrothed to a Northern lady.

This also means that I don't have high hopes for Sansa's relationship with Harry Hardyng or her association with Littlefinger given both their personalities (Harry resents the betrothal in the first place) and Littlefinger's lust for Catelyn being projected onto Sansa. 

[kissdbyfire]

It’s one thing to say there are parallels in their stories and an altogether different thing to say they are “sides of the same coin”. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Please don't bring up the garbage show as evidence, since Sansa has never met and is very unlikely to meet Ramsay Bolton, and it didn't make show-Sansa as cruel as Cersei.

And the ressemblance between Sansa and Cersei are superficial since Sansa lacks Cersei's ambition, cruelty, petiness, paranoia and vindicativeness and that Cersei was already cruel and petty long before marrying Robert. And that's not counting the lack of incest.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s one thing to say there are parallels in their stories and an altogether different thing to say they are “sides of the same coin”. 

Yes there's parallels and what I'm saying is that there's a chance, considering where Sansa is at now under Littlefinger that she could become like Cersei. Don't necessarily like it, but there's a chance.

 

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Please don't bring up the garbage show as evidence, since Sansa has never met and is very unlikely to meet Ramsay Bolton. 

And the resemblance between Sansa and Cersei are superficial since Sansa lacks Cersei's ambition, cruelty, petiness, paranoia and vindicativeness and that Cersei was already cruel and petty long before marrying Robert. And that's not counting the lack of incest.

Harry may not be as bad as Ramsay, but he doesn't seem like a good person. As far as superficial resemblance, that'll probably change under Littlefinger.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Yes there's parallels and what I'm saying is that there's a chance, considering where Sansa is at now under Littlefinger that she could become like Cersei. Don't necessarily like it, but there's a chance.

 

Harry may not be as bad as Ramsay, but he doesn't seem like a good person. As far as superficial resemblance, that'll probably change under Littlefinger.

I very very strongly doubt that, even after everything she went through and with Littlefinger's teachings Sansa is clearly not even close to the level of young Cersei and still has some morals and lack the flaws that are in overabudance within Cersei. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

And show-Ramsay didn't make show-Sansa as bad as Cersei, so this argument is moot already. 

[Nevets]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Yes there's parallels and what I'm saying is that there's a chance, considering where Sansa is at now under Littlefinger that she could become like Cersei. Don't necessarily like it, but there's a chance.

 

Harry may not be as bad as Ramsay, but he doesn't seem like a good person. As far as superficial resemblance, that'll probably change under Littlefinger.

Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and never did, from the moment she met him.  So I don't see her becoming Cersei 2.0, especially considering how she regards Cersei.

She might become a bit more ruthless and pragmatic, but considering where she is now, that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Given that she is disinclined to hurting people, I don't see her going too far.

[Corvo the Crow]

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s one thing to say there are parallels in their stories and an altogether different thing to say they are “sides of the same coin”. 

And a wholly another thing to use abominational evidences.

[kissdbyfire]

32 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Please don't bring up the garbage show as evidence, since Sansa has never met and is very unlikely to meet Ramsay Bolton, and it didn't make show-Sansa as cruel as Cersei.

And the ressemblance between Sansa and Cersei are superficial since Sansa lacks Cersei's ambition, cruelty, petiness, paranoia and vindicativeness and that Cersei was already cruel and petty long before marrying Robert. And that's not counting the lack of incest.

This. 

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And a wholly another thing to use abominational evidences.

And this. I forgot to bring up this detail in my reply.

Also, @Angel Eyes, like I said, parallels are one thing but I don’t see anything in Sansa’s character that even remotely hints at her becoming like Cersei in any way, shape or form… just look at everything @Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said, all spot on. Cersei was a nasty narcissist long before she met Robert, she killed her “best friend” when she was still a teen/preteen, she is incapable of compassion and empathy, both traits Sansa has in spades. 

[Aebram]

Wow, Angel Eyes, you really kicked the hornets' nest with this one! I think you make some interesting points. There are a lot of parallels between Sansa and Cersei, even if we leave out the ones that come from the TV show.

And the George does like to set up cliché plot points and then break them, such as killing off the Good Guys. So turning a Good Guy (or Gal) into a Bad one is something he might enjoy.

He's already done that a few times. The most blatant example is Arya, Sansa's own sister. They were brought up in the same family, in the same environment; but after being oppressed and endangered, Arya is now an assassin-in-training who also kills people as an extracurricular activity. And Tyrion started the story as an generally wise and kind person; but now he's a liar and a murderer, whose driving force in life is hatred for his sister.

Getting back to House Stark, both Bran and Jon Snow are expected by some readers to turn to the dark side. And Rickon has shown signs of becoming a disturbed and dangerous person. So if Sansa ends up taking a similar path, it won't be without quite a bit of foreshadowing.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Aebram

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

To quote a certain French "archaeologist", Cersei is a shadowy reflection of Sansa and it would only take a small nudge to make Sansa like Cersei (as evidenced with the show when Sansa marries Ramsay).

Both are daughters of a Warden, whose fathers were made Hand of the King to a King who was a close friend of said father. Each has a brother who joined a monastic warrior order who became its Lord Commander (Jon for Sansa, Jaime for Cersei), a younger sibling whom they quarrel with (Arya for Sansa, Tyrion for Cersei), and a younger brother who's crippled (Bran for Sansa, Tyrion again for Cersei. Both ladies had aspirations for being queen and were betrothed/married to royalty, but suffered abuse at their hands (Robert raped Cersei, Joffrey had Sansa beaten) which has left them decidedly jaded ("No one will marry me for love).") Sansa's subsequent husband and betrothed bear similarities to Cersei's husband Robert Baratheon; Tyrion is a hedonistic womanizer while Harry Hardyng is a womanizer who casts his illegitimate children aside and betrothed to a Northern lady.

This also means that I don't have high hopes for Sansa's relationship with Harry Hardyng or her association with Littlefinger given both their personalities (Harry resents the betrothal in the first place) and Littlefinger's lust for Catelyn being projected onto Sansa. 

Ah Bud...you are normally articulate and insightful.  I usually agree with your posts.  This I take many exceptions with.  You really do have to bring other versions of this story in to make Sansa and Cersei comparable.  Let's break it down to Sansa's age, for we do have some examples from Cersei's life and times.  Can you imagine an 8 year old Sansa twisting newborn Rickon's penis for no other reason than to cause him pain?  How about 12 year old Sansa pushing Jeyne Poole down a well for saying Robbs' cute and she wants to marry him?  Cersei already demonstrated serious emotional defects well before she was Sansa's age and cold blooded murder by the time she is the age we meet Sansa.  These are two very different girls.  There is no reason they will be similar women.

Cersei's role is to instruct Sansa, help her mature quickly and decisively.  Cersei gives Sansa dire warning about sex and marriage with Joffrey, wine and disparages Sansa's faith.  This royal woman tears this child down at every turn and opportunity while using her to every advantage, often to Sansa's detriment.  By the time Sansa is finally rescued from Kings Landing by the sleaziest guy in the series she is traumatized to the point we all take a collective sigh of relief at her escape.   

Of course there will be similarities in their lives.  Noble women had few options.  Aryas did not happen then.  Noble women married and had children and that was about it.  That was their career trajectory.  They had little to no say at all in whom was chosen to marry them or where their homes would be or how many children they would bear.  Women were chattel, property.  It was fine to slap them around.  

Sansa daydreamed of this perfect prince type while Cersei seemed to want the top dog.  The Prince who was promised to be King.  Cersei is ambitious.  I think she always was.  I have a very clear sense of Cersei and the person she is, woman, mother, wife, lover and queen.  That picture in incomplete for Sansa because she is young and developing and still a very sweet girl.  

[SeanF]

Sansa had become Cersei 2.0, by the finish of the Abomination, and the show runners thought that a good thing, for they saw Cersei as someone to emulate.

But, I don’t think that’s the case in the books at all.  Cersei is cruel, spiteful, selfish, treacherous, and ungrateful.  Other peoples’ suffering is a source of constant amusement to her.

Sansa has faults, especially to begin with, but nothing like Cersei’s.  It’s very hard to imagine Sansa pushing another girl down a well, and leaving her to die, or supervising the brutal torture of someone she knows to be innocent

[Tyrosh Lannister]

Given what show Ramsay did to to show Sansa, rickon , she is is completely justified in the killing of ramsay. That does not make her the same as Cersei who has innocent children and adults put to death .

[Springwatch]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

To quote a certain French "archaeologist", Cersei is a shadowy reflection of Sansa and it would only take a small nudge to make Sansa like Cersei [...]

This is like saying Sansa and Cersei are the same side of the same coin. You should have stuck with the original version: different sides of the same coin - both queen material, but one wants to rule by love, the other by fear.

I liked the parallels though.

[astarkchoice]

Sansa has had an interesting education for sure.

Joffery showed her to be strong inside, the limits and the uses  of curtesy 'a ladys armour' , loyalty to family is important and not to judge on appearances.

Lf has introduxed her to court intrigues and how to plot and conspire. 

The hound has introduced her to the realities of what a knight truely is..she  understands war and  the warriors she might have to command  now, she isnt impressed by show anymore and knows how ugly the reality of things she may order look like up close.

Cersei taught her some of the grubby realities of being a woman in power 

Margery and the queen of thorns showed her that the game can be played without being evil/nasty

Now in the vale all that is comming together. Without him being sure of her true  name shes learned to entrap harry ....shes old enough now to turn her well groomed social skills and looks  into adult  flirting to win the right people over. Shes aware of lfs interest and will possibly.begin to manipulate him.

She can also come full circle too as the vale is very honour obsessed thus her  'ladys armour' is more useful than ever.....speta mordanes best pupil is about to shine and white knights all over the vale.will come to.her defence when needed

[SeanF]

If Sansa were to play an active part in murdering Sweetrobin, in TWOW, I expect it would be because LF placed her in a position where she thought she had little choice - it's either her life on the line, or Sweetrobin's.  That would still be different to a Cersei, whose conscience would be untroubled by murdering Sweetrobin.

[sifth]

Sansa’s personality is nothing like Cersei. Are you trying to infer that she’s evil like Cersei, simply because she was happy to see Joffrey die a painful death? The guy was an absolute monster to her, who both physically and mentally abused her.

Edited June 15, 2023 by sifth

[The Commentator]

Cersei protects her children and the family. Sansa doesn’t.  Age gap is wide. These two are not alike in personality. They share ambition and a strong liking for Joffrey. Cersei controls men. Sansa is controlled by men.  And so on.

[csuszka1948]

I think Cersei is a (somewhat) different character in the first 3 books and AFFC.

Yes, she was arrogant and prideful, but that's a common Lannister trait. She wasn't a genius like Tyrion, but wasn't stupid in the way AFFC Cersei is nor was she prophecy obsessed. 

The Cersei of the first 3 books is a dark mirror of Sansa: they both wanted to be queen and suffered (although Sansa much more) at the hands of their husbands, but the way they responded to that abuse was completely different: Sansa retained her kindness, while Cersei completely lost it (if she ever had it to begin with).

[Mourning Star]

17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei is a shadowy reflection of Sansa and it would only take a small nudge to make Sansa like Cersei

So I don’t like using the show as evidence, nor do I think Cersei and Sansa are the same, but I agree that there are very strong parallels between them, although Cersei is much more extreme in her dislikable behavior.

Both mistreat their brother, the “bastard in their father’s eyes”. Sansa is cruel to Jon, while Cersei is physically abusive to Tyrion. Of course the situations aren’t exactly the same, Cersei blames Tyrion for her mothers death, while in the case of Jon it’s his mother who is dead.

Cersei pushes her best friend down a well, while in Sansa’s case, Jeyne Poole suffers a fate some might consider as bad or worse than drowning in a well, but with a far less literal and direct push from Sansa. Still, Sansa’s callous disregard for her best friend is a possible parallel to Cersei.

Both Cersei and Sansa have ambitions of being queen, Cersei dreaming of Rhaegar and Sansa of Joff. Cersei lies to Jamie about it, while Sansa lies about the Trident incident. They would both go on to be victims of royal abuse, and participate in the murder of the abuser.

I don’t think we know how this parallel will play out, but I do think that how Sansa deals with Sweetrobin will be the breaking point. If she participates in a plot to poison her cousin and marry his heir to usurp his seat, then I think she’s headed down the same road as Cersei. If she is able to save her cousin, then she can hopefully be a foil to Cersei rather than a reflection.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mourning Star