Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Because they need to believe Russians are subhuman orcs who deserve to die in order to make genocidal rhetoric about how Ukraine is the original Russia and that Ukrainian nationalists are 'heroes' looking to ethnically cleanse the borders of their 'country' of Russian people (Ukrainians who are part of the Russian world) equates somehow to 'democracy'. 

Of course you realize we need none of these things. I’ll explain this to you simply: Russia has invaded another country and people are dying as a result. That’s all we need to know. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[Pebble thats Stubby]

and we suport the Russian army fucking off back to Russa as per the agreed international boarders, and leaving Ukraine alone.

 

We don't want the end of Russia,  but we do Support Ukraine not ending, and Urkrains right to exsit as a free and independant nation.  Just Fuck off out of Urkrain.  simples.  War ended.  Bloodshed ended.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Prigozhin is a Jew

We already covered this dude. A person with Jewish ancestry can be a Jew keep up.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nazism is outlawed in Russia.

Nazism is equated to being anti-Russian imperialism though…

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

That sentence is based on a belief in racial supremacy

It can also be based on a repudiation of Ukraine belonging to Russia.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

What about democratic ideals come from calling Russians ‘orcs’

I do like call Russian soldiers invading orcs*

 

[butterweedstrover]

13 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Of course you realize we need none of these things. I’ll explain this to you simply: Russia has invaded another country and people are dying as a result. That’s all we need to know. 

 

5 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

and we suport the Russian army fucking off back to Russa as per the agreed international boarders, and leaving Ukraine alone.

 

We don't want the end of Russia,  but we do Support Ukraine not ending, and Urkrains right to exsit as a free and independant nation.  Just Fuck off out of Urkrain.  simples.  War ended.  Bloodshed ended.

 

You guys know what you're doing, take it up with your priest. 

If internationally recognized borders was your concern, Kosovo and Taiwan wouldn't be an issue. You want this war to spread to Donetsk city and Sevestapol. You want to dismantle the Russian government and have their officials put on trial. You want the war to escalate and for the black sea to be under the complete control of NATO. 

And you want all this under the guise of feeding genocidal rhetoric about Ukraine being the Original Rus and Russians being pretenders. That is the language of Bandera, so why is it shared in the west. Why use the language of orcs, and cultural dehumanization if you don't condone the goal of Kiev, which is to cleanse their country of Russians (Ukrainians who identify as Russian).  

[Toth]

Mmh, yes, pretty sure the Ukrainians in the occupied territories love being occupied:

 

[butterweedstrover]

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We already covered this dude. A person with Jewish ancestry can be a Jew keep up. 

Prigozhin is a proud Jew. He didn't appreciate the Nazis slaughtering his ancestors. 

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nazism is equated to being anti-Russian imperialism though… 

Whatever the reason, Nazism is outlawed in Russia but not Ukraine. 

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It can also be based on a repudiation of Ukraine belonging to Russia. 

We know what it's based on, we know who said it originally, and we know it's a hysterical lie. So why are we using such language? Who is saying? What is their motive? 

Fascism is what it is. 

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I do like call Russian soldiers invading orcs*

 

You dehumanize Russia in steps. First its the mobilized boys, then its the culture, then the religion, then all Ukrainians (Rus) who identify as Russian who need to cleansed from the "internationally recognized borders."

Edited July 15, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Prigozhin is a Jew and Nazism is outlawed in Russia. Anyone who does that in Russia is a criminal. Nazism is a sign for people who want to destroy Russia, it has no place within the Russian government. 

Bandera and Ukraine are different. Bandera has a distinct place in the Ukrainian government.

Where does an American (or Canadian or Scot or Irishman, or Frenchman, etc.) learn the phrase: 

“Ukraine existed long before Russia.” 
 

That is verbatim the language of Banderaites who want to cleanse Ukraine of any ‘mongol’ (Russian) influence. Their language, their religion, their supporters, etc. 

If Bandera was such a fringe figure for only a few hard right militias, why does such rhetoric permeate among its liberal supporters in the west?

Why would a western liberal with no cultural or familial ties to Ukraine utter such a statement as “Ukraine existed before Russia was even a word”. 

That sentence is based on a belief in racial supremacy. And its ideology wants actual genocide, not just of the Russian language, but the Russian people. 

Who is saying this stuff then? Azov? or the political establishment in Kiev which people here think are heroes of democracy?

What does “Ukraine existed before Russia” have to do with supporting democracy? What about democratic ideals come from calling Russians ‘orcs’ and their civilization a lie. 
 

Does that come from people interested in promoting an inclusive liberal democracy? Or from people who want to cleanse their territory of the ‘lesser’ people. Not just the church and the language (which they are already doing) but Ukrainians who identify as Russians. 

Where do you think this genocidal rhetoric leads? Because we already saw the execution and torture of ‘collaborators’ in Mariupol (2015) and Kherson (2022). Do you think these people want peace? 

So while you send arms to the conflict where poor underfed conscripts are thrown into the frontlines and mass death ensues, how are you fighting genocide? How are you defending democracy?

People like this Atkins guy (never heard of him) talk about fueling this war as if it were done for sake of peace and justice. Rather than negotiate a settlement, they want the fighting to spread to Sevastopol and Donetsk city. What do you think happens there? Do the people get to voluntarily choose to become patriotic Ukrainian nationalists? how do you see this ending? 
 

I find it ironic people who want this war to end without the complete destruction of Russian forces, without the promotion of ethnic cleaning, without the disassembly of the government in Moscow, without complete western military control of the Black Sea, they are the ones accused of being pro-genocide. 

I won’t do the same to you, but it’s ironic that people on your side think only Russians are dumb enough to fall for propaganda. You on the other hand are not susceptible to such things, yet this entire thread is made up of people who unanimously support the most extreme conclusion to this war. 

It’s almost as if propaganda is a two way street, and you are being fed the same thing as the Russians.

Brandera is long dead.

Ukraine is the victim of aggression, Russia the perpetrator.

That’s all we need to know.

[James Arryn]

21 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

 

You guys know what you're doing, take it up with your priest. 

If internationally recognized borders was your concern, Kosovo and Taiwan wouldn't be an issue. You want this war to spread to Donetsk city and Sevestapol. You want to dismantle the Russian government and have their officials put on trial. You want the war to escalate and for the black sea to be under the complete control of NATO. 

And you want all this under the guise of feeding genocidal rhetoric about Ukraine being the Original Rus and Russians being pretenders. That is the language of Bandera, so why is it shared in the west. Why use the language of orcs, and cultural dehumanization if you don't condone the goal of Kiev, which is to cleanse their country of Russians (Ukrainians who identify as Russian).  

You know what we want more than we do?

If any of the shit you were saying made sense, how did Putin get away with it for so long? No one did much when he took Chechnya, no one did much about Georgia, the Crimea, Donbas, etc. but finally, partly because the US was finished with it’s own adventurism, but more because it was becoming obvious that Putin was going to keep expanding, the world began to pay attention. If the West was obsessed with Russia, it’s an awfully intermittent obsession. 

And, last time, we do not need to say Ukraine is older than Russia. No one needs to say that because being older is not a rational excuse for a violent invasion. Only you and people excusing this war under outdated-a-century-past ideology that imperialism is its own excuse keep needing to talk about it. We do not see that as remotely relevant to the discussion. It sounds to us like if you explained that the invasion was reasonable because Russians are on average 0.4 cm taller than Ukrainians. It sounds insane.

But if it’s also factually challengeable you should not be surprised that people will also argue the point, because debate. But you are confusing us with people like yourself when you think that we think either country being older should give it the right to conquer the other. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[butterweedstrover]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

That’s all we need to know.

This is all we need to know. 

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

And to think you're not a victim of propaganda. 

[butterweedstrover]

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

You know what we want more than we do? 

I am listening to the stuff you say, and I believe you mean it. 

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

If any of the shit you were saying made sense, how did Putin get away with it for so long? No one did much when he took Chechnya, no one did much about Georgia, the Crimea, Donbas, etc. but finally, partly because the US was finished with it’s own adventurism, but more because it was becoming obvious that Putin was going to keep expanding, the world began to pay attention. If the West was obsessed with Russia, it’s an awfully intermittent obsession.  

 

We can debate why things changed, I have certain beliefs as to why. But we cannot deny what is happening. 

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

 

And, last time, we do not need to say Ukraine is older than Russia. No one needs to say that because being older is not a rational excuse for a violent invasion. Only you and people excusing this war under outdated-a-century-past ideology that imperialism is its own excuse keep needing to talk about it. We do not see that as remotely relevant to the discussion. It sounds to us like if you explained that the invasion was reasonable because Russians are on average 0.4 cm taller than Ukrainians. It sounds insane. 

And yet you make that argument anyways. I was not the one who said "Ukraine existed before Russia." 

Yet western liberals are saying it BECAUSE the Ukrainian government is using that language. And the Ukrainian government wants all Russians (Ukrainians who identify as Russians) cleansed from their "internationally recognized" borders. The culture and language, that is the first step, then people get to 'voluntarily' choose to be followers of Ukrainian Nationalism. 

And for some reason, people like you and this Atkins fellow believe by escalating this war you are defending democracy and stopping genocide. 

8 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

 

But if it’s also factually challengeable you should not be surprised that people will also argue the point, because debate. But you are confusing us with people like yourself when you think that either country being older should give it the right to conquer the other. 

You don't see how you are no different. You believe you are immune to propaganda, that you are immune to historical revisionism, that your side is good and its military aims should therefore be pursued to the most extreme extent. And any dissenters as to that point are defending genocide. 

I am saying you (the general you) are the ones caught up in historical lies, spiritual beliefs, and the desire for total conquest. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by butterweedstrover

[Varysblackfyre321]

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Prigozhin is a proud Jew. He didn't appreciate the Nazis slaughtering his ancestors.

Well he did join a Nazi militia so…

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Whatever the reason, Nazism is outlawed in Russia

Yes being anti-Russian imperialism is outlawed in Russia.

 

23 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

We know what it's based on, we know who said it originally, and we know it's a hysterical lie. So why are we using such language? Who is saying? What is their motive? 

 

Hmm I have a perfectly rational alternative besides “I hate Russians they all need to die”

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You dehumanize Russia in steps. First its the mobilized boys,

Mainly the ones raping and murdering  Ukrainians.

Like wagner
 

26 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

then its the culture,

Eh what culture can’t have something critiqued?

27 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

then the religion,

I’m not a fan of religion in general.

28 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

then all Ukrainians (Rus) who identify as Russian who need to cleansed from the "internationally recognized borders."

I’m feeling a couple steps where missed to arrive at this point.

[James Arryn]

18 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is all we need to know. 

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

And to think you're not a victim of propaganda. 

I have believed the reports that Russia invaded Ukraine. Is that propaganda? I have believed that people have died in the invasion. Is that propaganda?

Literally nothing else matters to me no matter how often you keep insisting it does. You are talking to someone who argued vehemently against every American invasion of his lifetime, so insisting that I’m the victim of propaganda sounds like projection to me. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And the Ukrainian government wants all Russians (Ukrainians who identify as Russians) cleansed from their "internationally recognized" borders.

Where did they say that?

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

internationally recognized" borders.

Are you denying Ukraine’s international borders include the territory Russia took from them since 2014?

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is all we need to know. 

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

And to think you're not a victim of propaganda. 

Stop being a clown. As everyone has said, no one wants to destroy Russia, they want to destroy Putin and he is not Russia. Every Russian should want to destroy him too because he's been a terrible leader that's plundered his own country while holding its citizens back. Get your head out of your ass.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russia is bad,

Here yes.

22 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

and Russia must be destroyed

Nah that’d just land us possibly with smaller ethnic enclaves with access to nukes.

27 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That’s all we need to know.

True—somethings are black and white.

Sometimes people invoke a facade of nuance to make clearly evil shit seem less like evil shit.

war of conquest bad. War of conquest with the justification in part being ethnic ties to people who live in the country you’re trying to take over bad.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[kiko]

37 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Literally nothing else matters to me no matter how often you keep insisting it does. You are talking to someone who argued vehemently against every American invasion of his lifetime, so insisting that I’m the victim of propaganda sounds like projection to me.

That's far beyond the mental capacity of those people. If you are against the Muscovites attacking their neighbors they always come back with you Americans did worse in Granada or wherever. Explaining them that you were against that too and maybe are not American or even from a country that may have been victim of their imperialism would immer destroy their binary and upside down world view. So it will be ignored. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is all we need to know. 

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

And to think you're not a victim of propaganda. 

You’re defending a country so steeped in corruption that people are arrested for holding a blank piece of paper in public, and the opposition are either dead or in jail on trumped up charges.

A country that is large and has a lot of natural resources; when communism fell, it could have made its people prosperous - instead the money went to the oligarchs and it became a gangster state, bullying its neighbours, conducting rape, torture, murder and mass abduction.

A paper tiger who would be irrelevant save for its nukes.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Derfel Cadarn

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

That all the context, political aims, or even reality can be ignored. Russia is bad, and Russia must be destroyed. It doesn't matter how we do it, the war of justice must go on. 

Expelling the invading Russian forces from Ukraine is just and proper.  Thank you for recognizing that basic fact.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

And for some reason, people like you and this Atkins fellow believe by escalating this war you are defending democracy and stopping genocide. 

Liberating territory from occupying military forces is “escalation”?  So… the Allies in liberating France from Nazi occupation were “escalating” the war?  Liberating territory from an occupying army is, in your view, worse than the invasion that initially occupied that territory… because… repelling invadors is “escalation”?

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Expelling the invading Russian forces from Ukraine is just and proper.  Thank you for recognizing that basic fact.

Though if they just volunteerly leave that’d be great too.