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[mormont]

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Agree, it's pretty awful when people use tragedy to push their own agendas and grift their way to more clicks and views.
 

 

The quoted tweet is a reasonable, pertinent and obvious observation. We know that Letby got the benefit of the doubt in part because people thought she was 'nice' and found it hard to credit her as a killer. Part of that was her appearance, and part of that was that she was white. White women, particularly young, able-bodied white women, are very much the avatars of innocence in our culture.

I would have to say that if there's an agenda being pushed here, it is the idea that Letby's whiteness didn't matter.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

The quoted tweet is a reasonable, pertinent and obvious observation.

I'm saying nothing.

[BigFatCoward]

The notion that discipline/misconduct in workplaces isn't affected by race is so bizarre as to not be worth discussing.  

 

 

 

 

=

Edited August 23, 2023 by BigFatCoward

[Heartofice]

Ok I'll bite.

There's a couple of things going on here

Firstly you have 'Dr' Shola who is a pretty well known race baiting grifter, who takes every opportunity she can to appear on mainstream tv to make outrageous, borderline racist statements, as a way of promoting her own brand of nonsense, and sell books and more tv appearances. This is exactly what she is doing here. It is not surprising that she managed to find a way to crowbar race into this tragedy, and get some more clicks. I think it's incredibly grim and she is a pretty unpleasant individual at the best of times.

Secondly, her assertion that Letby was getting away with these crimes.. because she was white.. is pure conjecture, evidence free and just another wild statement that is just designed to promote herself. You could quite easily turn around and say the exact opposite thing, that if she was black people would be too scared to accuse her in case they were called racist. Either one is completely evidence free, and just based on your own prejudices. 

This also diverts away from the actual reasons this tragedy happened, turning this into an issue of race is unhelpful and honestly quite disgusting.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think the Lucy Letby case cuts across race, ethnic origin, immigration status, appearance, accent and class in a way that is quite nuanced. 

I do think her race played a role, but her appearance, her ethnic origin and accent played significantly bigger roles.  Britain today is not Britain 30 years ago. 

There are plenty of Britons who are completely British in affect, accent, upbringing and behavior who might have been accepted as recognizably British Black or Asian, and given the benefit of the doubt while a recent Nigerian immigrant nurse with a strong accent and a decade spent in Nigerian hospitals would probably not have been. 

I suspect one of the reasons she was repeatedly given the benefit of the doubt against the doctors were precisely because many (all?) of the doctors were immigrants. 

@Heartofice, you are right there is precious little evidence of racism.  I know nothing about this woman, and for all you say, she might be a race-baiter of the worst kind.  But surely you accept that (i) the free pass given to Lucy Letby is inexplicable; (ii) evidence of racism is not going to be overt here?

[Heartofice]

21 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I know nothing about this woman, and for all you say, she might be a race-baiter of the worst kind. 

She is, so let's make that clear from the outset. She has a long history of making these inflammatory comments as a way of gaining attention, and it's hard to comprehend that she might actually believe half the things she is saying. So you need to understand that when looking at her tweet. She is also quite a well known figure on British daytime TV, pretty much the go-to person to talk to about race on chat shows.
 

23 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

But surely you accept that (i) the free pass given to Lucy Letby is inexplicable; (ii) evidence of racism is not going to be overt here?

Of course, the whole point of this case is that the warning signals were ignored time and time again. Yes the evidence is not going to be overt, but that doesn't mean it exists either.

For starters, if all things about Letby were equal, she was young, attractive, nice, well spoken.. but she had darker skin, I don't think anything would have played out differently. There might be elements of her character that fooled people, but you could then start suggesting she has 'young privilege' or ' pretty privilege' or 'educational privilege' or even 'female privilege', all of which were far more like to to have influenced people's reactions to her. But nobody is making claims that these are things we should call out, because it's obviously not the issue at hand.

For starters, she wasn't just ignored, there were a number of complaints and red flags raised about her, despite her being white, by other white colleagues. That's one reason why I just don't think race plays any meaningful role in this tragedy.
 

34 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

There are plenty of Britons who are completely British in affect, accent, upbringing and behavior who might have been accepted as recognizably British Black or Asian, and given the benefit of the doubt while a recent Nigerian immigrant nurse with a strong accent and a decade spent in Nigerian hospitals would probably not have been. 

I would agree with you here, there are always assumptions made of people for whom english is not the first language and who have come from poorer countries and I agree that in that case there might be prejudice about the level of competence. However, that isn't a question of 'whiteness' or even race really. 

[mormont]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

'Dr' Shola who is a pretty well known race baiting grifter,

I've never heard of her before now. She undoubtedly has a PhD though, so the scare quotes there are a choice.

[Heartofice]

Just now, mormont said:

I've never heard of her before now. She undoubtedly has a PhD though, so the scare quotes there are a choice.

Adding 'Dr' to your title is a choice when you have a PHD, and it's done in this case for clout she doesn't deserve

[Gaston de Foix]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Of course, the whole point of this case is that the warning signals were ignored time and time again. Yes the evidence is not going to be overt, but that doesn't mean it exists either.

We are trying to understand human motivations here.  That might be a fool's quest in and of itself, but if it is possible, it is not going to provide us with an algorithm.  Ofc, there were flags and warnings and they were ignored, at the cost of several newborn lives.  We are trying to understand why. 

I'll tell you now, even with a trial and an inquest and an inquiry (and possibly other investigations), no one will ask any of the participants involved if race played a role in defending Letby.  There will never be any overt evidence.  

Honestly, even if I was the inquiry counsel, and I suspected it, I wouldn't ask.  And if I asked, I wouldn't expect an honest answer from any of the implicated parties.  Too explosive and too likely to get people to shut down rather than open up.  

Maybe those complaining about Letby would admit they think it was a factor, but their perception is not the critical issue. 

And ofc that's doubly true of your hypos and mine.  Those too are in the realm of conjecture.  

But, yeah, prejudice takes many shapes and forms.  I think the best we can say here is that prejudice definitely played a role here, and we cannot rule out racial prejudice being in the mix.  

[Which Tyler]

So what I'm mostly getting out of this is that Ad Hominems are no longer considered logical fallacies; that PhDs aren't "real" doctors - despite being the actual doctors, whilst it's medics who use "Doctor" as an honourific rather than earned title; and that institutional racism is neither institutional nor racist (or if it is, it's of lesser importance, and less badness than "photogenic-ism").

 

Is that about it?

Edited August 23, 2023 by Which Tyler

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, Gaston de Foix said:

But, yeah, prejudice takes many shapes and forms.  I think the best we can say here is that prejudice definitely played a role here, and we cannot rule out racial prejudice being in the mix.  

It might in the mix somewhere, but in the scale of things that matter, it's so far down the list that it's probably not worth focusing on it. Of course someone like 'Dr' Shola is going to make it the key issue because that is her entire game. 

The whole case is more a problem of general incompetence, people not having their eye on the ball, not responding to warnings, not wanting to believe that anyone might actually kill babies on purpose or not wanting to unleash a scandal on their hospital. There are just a whole pile of reasons before you even start to consider race, you just have to read about the events to see that. 

Only a race grifter would try and say this is about 'whiteness' 

27 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

So what I'm mostly getting out of this is that Ad Hominems are no longer considered logical fallacies; that PhDs aren't "real" doctors - despite being the actual doctors, whilst it's medics who use "Doctor" as an honourific rather than earned title; and that institutional racism is neither institutional nor racist (or if it is, it's of lesser importance, and less badness than "photogenic-ism").

 

Is that about it?

I mean if that is your take.. then.. well I don't know what to tell you quite frankly.

[dog-days]

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Precisely because many (all?) of the doctors were immigrants. 

Haven't looked them up, but Dr Ravi Jayaram is British Asian. I saw him acting in the Chester Mystery Plays this summer. He's more integrated than me. Comes across as someone near the top of the list to put in the bunker in the case of nuclear war breaking out. 

This case keeps reminding me of the post office scandal, though in some ways it's the opposite.

With the post office, the top brass were determined to claim and keep absurdly claiming that hundreds of innocent post masters/mistresses were guilty of fiddling the figures, when in fact it was the hugely expensive tech system that was going wrong. People went to prison and lives were wrecked.  The bosses were trying to cover their own arses.

Here, the management kept believing in Letby's innocence despite whistleblowing from numerous experts. I hope that didn't happen because the experts were brown. It may have. TBH, with the way that area of the country tends to work, I wouldn't be surprised if Letby turned out to be related to someone important, though I suppose that story would have reached the press by now. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by dog-days

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, dog-days said:

I hope that didn't happen because the experts were brown.

The main person to raise concerns about Letby was white.

Also worth mentioning that the hospital is almost 90% white, the surrounding area is 95% white. Race really wasn’t a key factor into anyone’s decision. 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Heartofice

[Spockydog]

8 minutes ago, dog-days said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Letby turned out to be related to someone important

Or shagging someone... 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

You think she might have made the honour's list at a different time.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

The notion that discipline/misconduct in workplaces isn't affected by race is so bizarre as to not be worth discussing. 

Correct. It's also borne out in the Medical Workforce data of all trusts in the UK. The Doctors union is also going to put a vote of no confidence in our regulator because of the disproportionate rates of investigation & outcomes for BAME staff

[Denvek]

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Adding 'Dr' to your title is a choice when you have a PHD, and it's done in this case for clout she doesn't deserve

So say that first. Don't just put scare quotes around the title and give us the implication that you don't think she deserves her PhD.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Denvek said:

So say that first. Don't just put scare quotes around the title and give us the implication that you don't think she deserves her PhD.

Really she deserves scare quotes around everything she says, it's that terrifying.

[SeanF]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:11 PM, Heartofice said:

Agree, it's pretty awful when people use tragedy to push their own agendas and grift their way to more clicks and views.
 

 

It seems  likely that the management were more concerned about the reputational damage of admitting to failings in their institution, than in giving Letby a pass because she was white.  The common feature of institutional scandals is almost always, trying to avoid reputational damage - with the result that reputational damage ends up being magnified.   Not to mention the way that whistle blowers are treated with hostility in institutions.

Saying that she wasn't investigated "for no other reason than she's white" is crass.

Edited August 24, 2023 by SeanF
4

[mormont]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It seems more likely that the management were more concerned about the reputational damage of admitting to failings in their institution, than in giving Letby a pass because she was white.

It's not an either/or.