Edmure: good, bad, or neither?

[James Steller]

Frankly, I think Edmure is an underrated figure in the series. He appears to be one of the precious few nobles who actually cares about the plight of the smallfolk. He is willing to go the extra mile to protect as many of his people as he can. Admittedly, this leads to mixed results, but to say he is incompetent feels unjust. He is not a prodigy like Robb, nor a Machiavellian like Tywin. He seems like an ordinary guy doing the best that he can to uphold his own values. And let us not forget that he is the only person in the series who can say that they defeated Tywin on the battlefield.

And I will not discuss his appalling treatment in the abomination, by the way. 

[kissdbyfire]

I agree, he does the best he can and shows a genuine concern for the well-being of the smallfolk. I think he is hugely underestimated and underrated, and ultimately a much better person than many nobles if not most. And I'm specifically including the Blackfish, who I think is a total arsehole. 

[Alester Florent]

He's a good man who would probably be an excellent peacetime lord. As a wartime lord he perhaps lacks the killer instinct and ruthless mindset to be really effective, but he does seem to learn quickly from his mistakes: after Jaime absolutely rinses him in the first round of the war, he does later manage to defeat Tywin in the field (while, it seems, heavily outnumbered), which is not to be sniffed at.

If he can somehow get out of captivity I think he has all the ingredients to be an impressive figure in the last third of the series, especially if his time in chains stiffens his spine and resolve a bit.

[James Steller]

27 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

 

If he can somehow get out of captivity I think he has all the ingredients to be an impressive figure in the last third of the series, especially if his time in chains stiffens his spine and resolve a bit.

I don’t think his resolve was ever in question. Even in captivity, when he’s facing defeat, he spites the Lannisters by helping his uncle escape Riverrun and he openly declares his hatred for Jaime. His resolve is as strong as it ever was.

[SeanF]

I think Edmure is one of the best highborn characters in the series.  He actually cares about his people.

[Tradecraft]

I'm currently playing around with the idea that Edmure is a parallel for Ned Stark. 

[SaffronLady]

5 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

the killer instinct

I wonder if we could see Edmure grow up like Bernard in "Yes, Prime Minister".

[Lee-Sensei]

Edmure's an angel, even though people think he's foolish and weak. They might be a little right. I do think he makes some mistakes during the war, but I forgive them. He's one of the few characters that seem to be unambiguously good in this series. More than any of the Starks except Sansa, Bran and Rickon imo.

[Craving Peaches]

I love Edmure and if you were a member of the Smallfolk living near Riverrun you would love him to.

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Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

Also, it is not just a good decision morally, but economically, since the lords rely on the Smallfolk to generate revenue. We see what happens when they cannot or do not protect the little people.

Quote

"I believe they call that war." Tyrion smelled Gregor Clegane's work, or that of Ser Amory Lorch or his father's other pet hellhound, the Qohorik. "What does he want of Joffrey?"

"New peasants," Bronn said. "He walked all this way to sing how loyal he is and beg for recompense."

Quote

"...As she lay dying, her worst curses were not for the men who had raped her, nor the monster who devoured her living flesh, but for Ser Quincy Cox, who barred his gates when the outlaws entered the town and sat safe behind stone walls as his people screamed and died."

I also think Edmure is often unfairly criticised for dealing with Tywin when Robb just wanted him to let him pass. If Robb wanted that then he should have told Edmure the plan. It is Robb's fault. If Robb was told to 'Hold Winterfell', wouldn't he do the same? Or would he just let the Lannisters pillage the Winter Town and surrounding areas? Someone said that Robb and the Blackfish were just making Edmure a scapegoat so they could have him marry a Frey, and I am starting to agree...

[astarkchoice]

He made one lapse in judgement in splitting up forces to persue the mountain before engaging jamies shock invasion  force   , the stopping tywin reaching the westerlands was on robb not him.

Seems to care for his people , was willing to marry a frey to make up for what he incorrectly saw as his mistake.

If anything  farr more blame should fall on hoster! He didnt properly admonish the freys for the trident nor reconcile them completely either....they are too powerful and  the twins too strategicaly positioned for that family to be left out on in the wind.

As he cant really prove walders late arrival at the triden was planned he shoulda held his nose and married edmure to a high ranking frey!

He also pushed the blackfish away , if the man wont marry fine but leave out the harping on and on and put him to work turning the tully forces into an elite! Have edmure stick to him like glue to learn how to be a badass at war!

 

And lets not get into how powerful house tully would have been had lf been forced to marry pegnant lysa ! Someone sneaky there to help politicaly shadowbox with the freys and others, make sure edmure isnt naieve , boost riverland finances, a decent spy network etc etc

 

[Alester Florent]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I also think Edmure is often unfairly criticised for dealing with Tywin when Robb just wanted him to let him pass. If Robb wanted that then he should have told Edmure the plan. It is Robb's fault. If Robb was told to 'Hold Winterfell', wouldn't he do the same? Or would he just let the Lannisters pillage the Winter Town and surrounding areas? Someone said that Robb and the Blackfish were just making Edmure a scapegoat so they could have him marry a Frey, and I am starting to agree...

It was absolutely Robb's fault for not telling Edmure the plan. There's no excuse not to do so, either: Edmure is, on paper at least, his leading lord, not to mention his uncle, as well as the "owner" of the primary theatre in which the war is being fought. He should be, if not Robb's closest confidant, then at least up to speed on overall strategy.

If he doesn't trust Edmure to use his initative he shouldn't have left him in charge of the army.

It might be that Robb simply didn't expect Edmure to consider confronting Tywin with only about half his men. That's not unreasonable, and if Edmure had lost the Riverlands army at the Fords - and Tywin had taken Riverrun as a consequence, then that would have been a disaster. But to defeat Tywin in the field is actually a major accomplishment, and Edmure deserves credit for it even if it wasn't actually part of Robb's plan.

Robb was a brilliant tactician and an inspirational leader, but he made some major mistakes as a commander-in-chief.

 

Quote

And lets not get into how powerful house tully would have been had lf been forced to marry pegnant lysa ! Someone sneaky there to help politicaly shadowbox with the freys and others, make sure edmure isnt naieve , boost riverland finances, a decent spy network etc etc

To be fair, that's not something that was foreseeable. Littlefinger was just this weird scrawny little nerd of no standing. How could anyone have guessed he would mature into the kingdom's foremost financial wizard and master manipulator.

In any case, wouldn't LF still have been resentful? It was Cat he wanted, not Lysa; if he'd been forced to marry Lysa he might have just dismantled the Tullys from the inside.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Edmure would have been a better king than about 90% of the Targaryens who sat their asses on that stupid throne. The fact that Dumb and Dumber made him an utterly irredeemable clown and a snobbish elitist (would Book Edmure compare the smallfolk to dogs?) is one of my biggest problems with the abomination.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Floki of the Ironborn

[Willam Stark]

He's one of the only lords who cares about the smallfolk, but also see them as his people, which is pretty rare.

He can only have my approval.

 

[sifth]

He seems like a nice guy. I love him for humiliating Tywin alone. I don't blame him for what happened the way Robb did, because there was no way he could have known; Robb really should have shared his plans with him. He was literally attacking Tywin to keep him away from Robb and all his men. He also loves and protects his smallfolk; I could love him for that lone.

[Arthur Peres]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

He seems like a nice guy. I love him for humiliating Tywin alone. I don't blame him for what happened the way Robb did, because there was no way he could have known; Robb really should have shared his plans with him. He was literally attacking Tywin to keep him away from Robb and all his men. He also loves and protects his smallfolk; I could love him for that lone.

 

Robb had nothing to do with Edmure's motivation to face Tywin and the text let this very clear. He never talks about saving Robb, protecting his rear, he talks about glory, about blooding Tywin and he expects Robb to help him trap Tywin even when he sends no menssager.

Edmure wanted glory, was jealous of being outshined by his kid nephew, wanted to payback Tywin and saw a advantage on the terrain that could make up for his numbers.

He is a good man, but he has too many flaws as a lord.

[Alester Florent]

25 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb had nothing to do with Edmure's motivation to face Tywin and the text let this very clear. He never talks about saving Robb, protecting his rear, he talks about glory, about blooding Tywin and he expects Robb to help him trap Tywin even when he sends no menssager.

Edmure wanted glory, was jealous of being outshined by his kid nephew, wanted to payback Tywin and saw a advantage on the terrain that could make up for his numbers.

He is a good man, but he has too many flaws as a lord.

If you're at war, the enemy is manoeuvring close to you and you believe you can confront them on favourable terms, you do so. In particular, Robb had told Edmure to hold Riverrun (a no-brainer) and Tywin was advancing west, towards Riverrun. If Edmure allowed Tywin to reach Riverrun's walls when he had an opportunity to defeat him in the field, that's poor generalship and while fulfilling the letter of Robb's orders is doing so in a stupid way.

The glory of defeating Tywin, well, sure, who wouldn't want that? And a reputation for success on the field is important in Westerosi society anyway. Defeating Tywin is good for the Riverlands, good for Edmure, and so far as Edmure knows, good for Robb (even if this wasn't the uppermost consideration in his mind) - indeed, defeating Tywin is the entire objective of the Riverlands campaign!

I really don't think Edmure can be legitimately criticised for taking Tywin on when he did.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Robb had nothing to do with Edmure's motivation to face Tywin and the text let this very clear. He never talks about saving Robb, protecting his rear, he talks about glory, about blooding Tywin and he expects Robb to help him trap Tywin even when he sends no menssager.

Edmure wanted glory, was jealous of being outshined by his kid nephew, wanted to payback Tywin and saw a advantage on the terrain that could make up for his numbers.

 

Frankly, if it wasn't for Stannis, I'd say Edmure did the absolute right thing. Robb was wreaking havoc upon the Westerlands, which means Tywin had no choice but to go back and deal with him. But Edmure was able to defend the fords against every attack Tywin sent, trapping him on the wrong side of the river. 

Even for a Stark fan like me, I think it's debatable whether Robb would have been able to ambush Tywin on his own turf, but every day that Edmure stalled Tywin was another day that he could plunder the west and diminish Tywin's reputation. Edmure had no way of knowing that Tywin would have been able to easily turn back and defend King's Landing from Stannis, let alone create a new alliance with the Tyrells via Littlefinger (which by the way, holy hell did Littlefinger screw over the Starks and Tully's at every turn. Did he really think he'd ever win Catelyn over after all the evil he did?).

You can argue all day whether Edmure's victory at the Fords was the disaster that Robb made it out to be, but I don't think it's fair to blame Edmure for the negative consequences. Those were beyond his control, and he couldn't have anticipated them unless he had the readers' knowledge.

[astarkchoice]

On 8/12/2023 at 11:25 AM, Alester Florent said:

To be fair thats no forseeable. Littlefinger was just this weird scrawny little nerd of no standing. How could anyone have guessed he would mature into the kingdom's foremost financial wizard and master manipulator.

In any case, wouldn't LF still have been resentful? It was Cat he wanted, not Lysa; if he'd been forced to marry Lysa he might have just dismantled the Tullys from the inside.

They say he was always very cunning and clever (like tyrion in that a kid too weak to be a warrior must look to other ways to shine) and the natural gift for finaces probably comes from being both a determined student and from a house soo poor every coin must be watched!

He loved cat but lets say hoster changes his mind and cant kill lysas unborn kid, lf would be forced to marry and lysas obsession with him means soon there would be more..all.for him to forge a legcay for. Hes far nore likely to work for the tullys than agaisnt.

[Kal-L]

I think we all agree Edmure was a good man. Concerning Robb, you rightly brought up the fact that he should have shared his plan but have you ever given the thoughts that perhaps he didn't share it because there wasn't "a plan"... and that he was merely scapegoating Edmure because he was desperate for someone of high rank to marry a Frey.

[Lady Ella]

I agree. I love Edmure and think he is a genuinely good person. It's in a lord's best interest to care for his smallfolk, but somehow none of the other Tullys seem to realise this. Of course, this works against him in AGoT, when he tries to defend all of his land at the same time and ends up defending none of it, but I put this down to poor training. He means well and he does learn from his mistakes.

He can be childish at times, but I think this is in large part due to the fact that his sister and his uncle keep treating him like a child. They are all overly harsh on him, but I love that that just makes him try harder. And he grows up pretty quickly after the RW.

I think Edmure tries to treat Robb like a member of the family as well, but Robb misinterprets this as disrespect. Edmure's desire to step out of the shadow of his 15-year-old nephew is not unreasonable. Edmure did need to prove himself to his lords, and he did exactly that. I think he exceeded his orders, but I don't blame him for that. I think the Targs were often happy to let their lords do whatever they wanted, whereas the Starks rule with an iron fist (i.e. micro-manage), which Edmure had no way of knowing.

Overall, I think he's the best Lord Paramount the Riverlands has ever had and, as a result, the Tullys have never been more popular. This is crucial for the Starks too because it will enable them to focus more on the North.