[Book Spoilers] Wheel of Time 3: Black Ajahpaloosa

[Arakasi]

Even in the books of you want to upset the status quo and get ahead it’s better to join the dark. You don’t see a ton of examples of rulers being dark they already are rich and powerful.

[Maia]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:34 PM, Ran said:

What's the relevance of female channelers here?

The relevance is that with thousands of channelers involved in  battles - which really should have been the case during Tarmon Gaidon and the build-up to it, normal troops can only play a secondary role, with strategies and tactics being adjusted accordingly. It also means that commanders needed to have a good understanding of what the One Power can do, and women should have been prominent among them, because the bulk of channelers on the side of Light would have been female, for obvious reasons.

Jordan didn't want to take this into account, because of how he chose to depict women in the series, so he just undercut female channelers at every opportunity and made them largely inept in military matters and in general.

I also think that the WT absolutely should have accelerated the training of novices/Accepted and prepared them to fight the Seanchan as well as the DFs/Shadowspawn. They should have abandoned or changed the Oaths too, since they have proved to be so ineffective, but even if not,  extreme brainwashing of the damane is a kind of death, so they should have felt threatened enough to fight as it is.

But let's also not forget about the Aiel. The 11 clans who followed Rand numbered 4-5 millions all told, IIRC. 1% of those whould have had  channeling potential, 0.1% would have been sparkers, so 0.05% are channeling WOs. That's 2-2.5K channelers. Now, WOs normally don't fight, of course, but they were prepared to fight in TG and also prepared to fight with OP against those who use it in combat themselves. If RJ had allowed them a minimum of sense, they would have been training for TG from the moment they accepted Rand as the Ca'racarn. And recruiting like crazy, since Moiraine taught them how to test for potential and how to link. Linking allows for forcing the power curve without the risk of a burn-out, so they should have been able to bring the beginners up to speed quickly. It should have also been clear to them, after the Dumai's Wells at the latest, but likely earlier, since they all have been through the columns ter'angreal, that just throwing fireballs wouldn't be enough, that they'd need  some better tactics.

Naturally, RJ, after stating that women are usually weak in fire and earth, has them using almost exclusively these elements in battle, nor do they tend to act in concert if not linked. Even though everything bar the gholam needs to breathe and consists mostly of water, so weaves of these elements - in which women tend to be strong, should have been much more effective for them. And I am not talking about  wrapping somebody in air or pushing them, but, say, creating vacuum or making razor-sharp microfilaments of air, like Asmodean did in TSR.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 3:01 PM, Gertrude said:

While a spotlight was focused on the incompetence of the Tower and the ajahs in the books, there should have been at least a green here or there who knew battle tactics.  They should have been practicing in the Blight and Borderlands.

Yes, it makes zero sense that there hadn't been any AS at Tarwin's gap, not even the royal advisers. And there should have been Greens stationed in the Borderlands at all times and going with the troops on the raids into the Blight - fighting against shadowspawn is why they join, after all. There just shouldn't have been enough of them to repel such a sudden and massive attack.

 

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And honestly, for as equal as he tried to portray the sexes in his world, the absence of woman in the military was noticeable. Yeah, I get it, women probably aren't going to fight on the front lines against men, but Birgitte showed how valuable she was in a fight.

 

Indeed. IRL there are plenty of examples of frail men, who would have been inferior soldiers, being successful officers and generals. Or of well organized forces of smaller, weaker individuals being victorious over bigger, stronger adversaries. Not to mention that armies are  in Randland as iRL an avenue of social mobility and that historically monarchs had good reasons to be wary of their generals and female ones had to be particularly careful... and yea. There is no way that this would have been something that women in Randland chose.

Ditto them choosing willfull helplessness by refusing to learn self-defense, in order to rely on kindness of men instead,  as RJ repeatedly assures us they do! Even while living in the Borderlands, which is just arrant nonsense.

 

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 The Seanchan had no problem having women in their army (Tylee comes to mind).

 

Funny thing is how it is mentioned a few times that women are too weak to use swords in the early books and even Birgitte is terrible with them, but then Seanchan women  have no problems whatsoever.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 3:19 PM, IFR said:

The show is "woke", if we define woke as prioritizing message over story.

 

Eh, are you going to pretend that WoT books series isn't permeated by a message? Which, along with a generous helping of  author's fetishes often gets shoved down the reader's throat to the detriment of the story? Though in this case it is "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus and never the twain shall meet." It is just that the rest of it is good enough to make up for it, for the most part.

I'd like to point out here that I strongly dislike what the show is doing with Lan so far - I am not against him being more expressive, but they went overboard and hadn't allowed him to shine at all since early season 1. The mourning scene was unnecessary and overdone, him needing Nyn's help to track Moiraine was abominable and his season 2 arc is sentimental nonsense so far.

 

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I think these changes have rendered the world and the general plot nonsensical, which I'm sure people will dispute.

 

So, the world was always somewhat nonsensical, because Jordan often fell back on pop history or what he was generally used to for his worldbuilding and people's attitudes, even though there was no basis for it given his premises. I mention some of the incongruities earlier, but here are a couple more:

For instance, creepy obsession with modesty and female virginity makes zero sense in societies where women aren't held responsible for sexual misconduct of men, and so must avoid doing anything that might be construed as "temptation".

Ditto the whole spiel in TGH of how AS seldom marry, because few men can tolerate being less important than their wives - but this isn't actually rare in Randland even among normals? And also there is no shortage of would-be warders, so what's the big difference?

The fact that there was a small but real 1:1000 chance that any man between 18 and 30 might suddenly turn into a super-powered madman should have had a profound effect on the attitudes towards them and what they might have been trusted with. Like any young guy travelling alone far from home should have been instantly suspicious. Anybody in that age bracket should have been undesirable in a position of leadership. Etc., etc.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 3:42 PM, Ran said:

The Aiel have women fighting too.

As foot soldiers, but not as military leaders. That is reserved for the sept/clan chiefs, who can only be men.

 

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I took his view on the matter in Randland being due to a female-dominated slant driven by the existence/influence of the White Tower and the Aes Sedai that basically men were seen as useful as soldiers but were also more expendable. You can see this attitude again and again among the Westlands women.

 

But it doesn't make any sense. Control of the military is hard power. IRL, monarchs who couldn't be military leaders  had to be wary of their own generals and handle them very carefully to avoid getting usurped. They were effectively in a weaker, more precarious position. For common people military was a chance at social mobility.

AS themselves should have been trained to fight with weapons and spread the fashion among other women, since they often needed to travel incognito and didn't always have warders. Particularly the Reds. It should have been a no-brainer for them to present themselves in a way that would deter an attack or let them use OP in self-defense subtly, without blowing their cover. Sigh.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 4:22 PM, fionwe1987 said:

As for the channelers in battle argument, no, we didn't really get cavalry charges and renaissance battle tactics left intact after LoC. Mat designs the Band, and the Legion of the Dragon, with Bashere, based exactly on what went wrong at Dumai's Well's.

 

But we did. There are cavalry charges in ACoS, TPoD and IIRC KoD too. I also fail to see what the Band or the Legion could have done if faced with the 200 Asha'man at Dumai's Wells or Rand's 50 in TPoD, who could now constantly Travel along their line of sight. Or even against comparable numbers of free female channelers used with similar level of competence. The 33 Tower AS at the Wells could handily defend themselves against arrows, after all.

I am not going into Sanderson's books, because he had to reduce the number of available channelers by a factor 10 or more and had them ignore a lot of previously used tactics and skills, while introducing new ones of his own invention to make it work.

I tried to find out what Ituralde did in KoD, but it seems that we were only shown one raid, where a single damane gets shot because for some reason she didn't put up defensive weaves when responding to an alarm? That seems like fudging to me, though of course damane would be at a disadvantage, since waiting on the orders of sul'dam slows them down and they are also very noticeable, so easily targeted. They also can't link or improvise, etc.

I don't remember Mat going against lots of damane in RJ's books either.

 

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Channelers are immensely deadly when concentrated

 

And there is no mundane way to prevent them from getting concentrated if some of  them can Travel. They have superior range and superior senses, too. They can camouflage themselves with OP. Also, if they had some common sense they'd wear the same clothing as soldiers to make it more difficult for normals and the opposite sex to target them, but that's a step too far even for male channelers in WoT, LoL.

 

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What they should do is have the channelers go back to the tactics used by the Tower in the Trolloc Wars, which was to have a complement of channelers with each unit, integrated into that unit. I think Sanderson totally botched the Last Battle by not having it happen. There were certainly signs before that we were leading up to this, especially with Perrin's battles. Then it all went nowhere.

 

That would have made sense, but nothing in Mat's memories of the Trolloc Wars suggests that this was the case back then? In fact, the tale of the fall of Manetheren hints at the opposite - that there had not been any channelers with the army, even the queen stayed back until all was lost and it was time to trigger the nuke.

Honestly, I think that the only way to make TG work after KoD was if Travelling (and Skimming) gradually stopped working because the Pattern became too unstable. This could also have explained how it could have been forgotten during the Breaking (ditto) or why nobody uses it in some of Rand's ancestral memories during the Time of Madness.

And yea, a lot of set-ups went nowhere - though to be fair, this also happened to RJ himself. He was almost as bad as Rowling at introducing something to solve a plot point and then forgetting that it ever existed. In his case also combined with building towards something for a few books and then changing his mind and abandoning it.

[Gertrude]

@Maia Brava!

I see so many people talk about this series as a matriarchy but they don't see that's it's a small veneer of equality with most of the patriarchal ideals of our world embedded in it. I am more talking about other forums of discussion, but even here this post points out how accepted 'this is the way it should be' is internalized even when it makes little sense with how RJ set up his world.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Gertrude

[Arakasi]

Jordan with channeling and traveling has the same problem Star Trek has with Transporters. Hard to not make every story about that when that would just solve most things. Then you have to write yourself into a corner where suddenly every world has a weird radiation field which makes it not work.

It’s rather clear this show is never going to have the scale that RJs book had. Fights between armies will be involve mere hundreds or maybe a thousand for the big fights. I do hope the biggest battles at least get to Last Kingdom scale or near it. It’s going to be in general a much more personal series due to realities of budget and rising FX costs.

Anyway what I’m getting at is there is going to be less magical I Win buttons and less people will have them. So yes we’re not going to see the endless travelling that permeated the later half of the series and took over it and made so many battles nonsensical. Rand and the forsaken will have it but I’m guessing very few else.

Edit: I do hope they find FX budget for a few more of the monsters like Drakhar or darkhounds or the various Seanchan beasts. But it’s clear they are constrained budget wise with FX. We saw this last episode with my biggest issue that being the lacklustre girls escape. We also see that with Perrin and his wolves not being CGI wolves but being wolf breeds of dogs. Then again I’ve read that the wolves in GoT were expensive enough they had to cut them from scenes.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Arakasi

[hauberk]

It's been 3500 years since the Breaking, roughly 3400 since the White Tower was constructed.  Presumably, around the same time, the Three Oaths were implemented.  At that point, a modification of tactics to conventional warfare would be required to occur and those conventional tactics would, by necessity, very likely become the dominate tactics on the field of battle and for holding ground.

When the Tower was constructed, it was designed to accommodate 3,000 sisters, assuming equal distribution between Ajahs, that would be roughly 430 Greens when the tower was full - not enough to effectively cover even the borderland, much less a porous perimeter due to the Ways, Travelling and Skimming.  Then divide that number based on the other nationalities that need to be addressed/impressed.  

The argument that Dumai's Wells demonstrates a massive logic gap just doesn't hold up - Taim was specifically forging the Ashaman to be offensive weapons, the Aes Sedai were not.  Certainly it represents a turning point but the year between Dumai's Wells and the Last Battle is hardly enough time to establish entirely new strategies and tactics.

[David Selig]

Yeah, it's always been bizarre to me that the only Green Ajah member in the books that we know for sure has had training in tactics and strategy is Elayne and she got it as a Daughter-heir, not in the Tower. And even she had zero weapon training even though she clearly had to be the genes to be good at it - her brothers are both elite swordsmen and she learned to do backflips on a tight rope without the aid of the One Power in about two weeks.

[Corvinus85]

17 minutes ago, hauberk said:

It's been 3500 years since the Breaking, roughly 3400 since the White Tower was constructed.  Presumably, around the same time, the Three Oaths were implemented.  At that point, a modification of tactics to conventional warfare would be required to occur and those conventional tactics would, by necessity, very likely become the dominate tactics on the field of battle and for holding ground.

When the Tower was constructed, it was designed to accommodate 3,000 sisters, assuming equal distribution between Ajahs, that would be roughly 430 Greens when the tower was full - not enough to effectively cover even the borderland, much less a porous perimeter due to the Ways, Travelling and Skimming.  Then divide that number based on the other nationalities that need to be addressed/impressed.  

The argument that Dumai's Wells demonstrates a massive logic gap just doesn't hold up - Taim was specifically forging the Ashaman to be offensive weapons, the Aes Sedai were not.  Certainly it represents a turning point but the year between Dumai's Wells and the Last Battle is hardly enough time to establish entirely new strategies and tactics.

Apparently only the Second Oath was implemented right after the World of Power, the one about not making weapons. The other two oaths were implemented sometime before the Trolloc Wars, but no more than 500 years before.

The show has clearly changed this - in the show universe they were implemented only as a result of Hawkwing's siege of TV, which is weird. So in a way the show needs to do heavier lifting in explaining how warfare has changed to more primitive styles as a result.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, hauberk said:

that would be roughly 430 Greens when the tower was full - not enough to effectively cover even the borderland, much less a porous perimeter due to the Ways, Travelling and Skimming. 

I don't think anyone is saying they should form a military border at the Blight, just that the sisters should have a constant presence there as that's where the Shadowspawn are active. Have a green or two with the leaders to direct where they would be most effective. Rotate the sisters on the Border to learn how to actually fight. I know the point is that the Tower is ineffective, but they are neglecting their chosen calling so badly it beggars belief. Obviously we are supposed to buy that most green just want the extra warders because reasons. While that may be part of it, the other ajahs at least pretend to do what they have chosen to do.

[Scott_N]

7 hours ago, Arakasi said:

But it’s clear they are constrained budget wise with FX. We saw this last episode with my biggest issue that being the lacklustre girls escape.

Lacklustre does not capture it. It was amongst the cheapest, fakest and silliest scenes I can recall watching on TV. Good lord.

Coming back to Wouter's comment earlier, the Aiel woman, unarmed and I'm guessing weighing 40kg or so, taking out a host of armed and armored professional soldiers was a different kind of silliness. Why does a show-runner feel this is necessary? Do the majority of the audience actually want/like it? There is no need for it to be so over the top, surely.

Surprised at how well received this episode has been. I expect book readers, by virtue of knowing much more, see something different to what's presented to me. It felt low budget YA.

It is still the competence of the senior actors that is holding this thing together. Time spent with the Two Rivers characters actively detracts from the show.

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Scott_N said:

Time spent with the Two Rivers characters actively detracts from the show.

The books are kinda...about them, at its core, so, uh, not doing that would be fantastically weird.

[Maia]

9 hours ago, Gertrude said:

@Maia Brava!

I see so many people talk about this series as a matriarchy but they don't see that's it's a small veneer of equality with most of the patriarchal ideals of our world embedded in it.

 

To Jordan's credit, he himself didn't see his world as a matriarchy, but as one of gender equality. Which is also not really the case,  but still. I don't have the link to his quote anymore, sorry.

 

8 hours ago, Arakasi said:

Jordan with channeling and traveling has the same problem Star Trek has with Transporters. Hard to not make every story about that when that would just solve most things.

I never understood why RJ suddenly decided to make Travelling widely available and completely drop the more restrictive Skimming and Portal Stones in the bargain - shouldn't it have been clear from the start that it would cause massive problems? Transporters were at least baked  into the very basis of Star Trek  for very practical and necessary reasons. He wasn't under any such constraints, though.

Jordan could have also introduced anti-Travelling wards from AoL to curb it in later volumes, since he wanted conventional armies, their manoeuvres and their generals to be important. Honestly, history of the War of Power doesn't even make any sense without them. How could one speak of "holding territory" if non-Shadowspawn enemy forces could gate in anywhere  at any time? Why didn't anybody use Travelling in Rand's ancestral visions? Etc. Yes, Sanderson does something like that with the Dreamspike, but it was far too little and too late.

 

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We also see that with Perrin and his wolves not being CGI wolves but being wolf breeds of dogs. Then again I’ve read that the wolves in GoT were expensive enough they had to cut them from scenes.

I am 100% OK with it, but couldn't they have found a larger breed? I can understand how them being so little, but played up as scary, might strain suspension of disbelief.

 

8 hours ago, hauberk said:

When the Tower was constructed, it was designed to accommodate 3,000 sisters, assuming equal distribution between Ajahs, that would be roughly 430 Greens when the tower was full - not enough to effectively cover even the borderland, much less a porous perimeter due to the Ways, Travelling and Skimming. 

Why would you assume equal distribution? The Reds and the Greens were the largest Ajahs even in the "modern" times, I bet that during the Trolloc Wars they made up at least 3/4 or so of all AS, with the greens predominating. Back then Shadowspawn couldn't use the Ways, IIRC, and other quick travel means had been forgotten. It was also mentioned in the text that they raised sisters quickly during that period and I imagine that the rejects were allowed to  fight too, if they so chose.

I think that the books hinted that one of the Oaths may have been introduced due to Hawkwing? Something along the lines of "between the Trolloc Wars and War of the Hundred Years we have adopted these Oaths?". Not looking up the exact quote.

 

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The argument that Dumai's Wells demonstrates a massive logic gap just doesn't hold up - Taim was specifically forging the Ashaman to be offensive weapons, the Aes Sedai were not.  Certainly it represents a turning point but the year between Dumai's Wells and the Last Battle is hardly enough time to establish entirely new strategies and tactics.

 

The AS were supposed to be offensive weapons against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn - at least the Greens were. But let's forget the WT - it has born the brunt of Ishy's sabotage over  the  millenia.

Let's consider the Aiel WOs instead. And the role that Aiel as a people were supposed to play in the TG according to their prophecies. They had more time to turn themselves into offensive weapons and bulk up their ranks with learners than the Asha'man, because they already knew what was coming as early as TSR.  Did they do so? Of course not, because wimmin. They were too busy lounging naked in  sweating tents, sipping tea, haranguing Rand and making their apprentices waste time digging holes.

Asha'man went from zero to outstripping all female channelers in a couple of months, because in WoT men are just naturally better at nearly everything. It is what it is.

 

53 minutes ago, Scott_N said:

Coming back to Wouter's comment earlier, the Aiel woman, unarmed and I'm guessing weighing 40kg or so, taking out a host of armed and armored professional soldiers was a different kind of silliness. Why does a show-runner feel this is necessary? Do the majority of the audience actually want/like it? There is no need for it to be so over the top, surely.

 

Not this old canard again. Do you seriously claim that an unarmed man taking out a dozen of these trained, armed and armored warriors like in the book would be any less silly? Or Perrin after a couple of hours of combat instruction being able to mow them down ditto?

Not to mention that while it is a man in this scene in the books, Aiel women fighters are  super-soldiers, who can take on superior numbers there too, though maybe a little less egregiously. Also, armor mostly functions on stormtrooper rules in WoT - the more somebody wears, the easier they are to defeat.

 I have noticed over the years  that some parts of the audience tend to happily lap up any kind of unrealistic silliness and find it bad-ass - as long as these feats are being performed by a man or a boy.

As soon as it is a woman size, muscle mass and the whole unreality of the situation gets loudly, tediously and repeatedly brought up and accusations of Sueism fly. Something to think about, perhaps?

[hauberk]

1 hour ago, Maia said:

 Why would you assume equal distribution? The Reds and the Greens were the largest Ajahs even in the "modern" times, I bet that during the Trolloc Wars they made up at least 3/4 or so of all AS, with the greens predominating. Back then Shadowspawn couldn't use the Ways, IIRC, and other quick travel means had been forgotten. It was also mentioned in the text that they raised sisters quickly during that period and I imagine that the rejects were allowed to  fight too, if they so chose.

So, 1,000-1,200 Greens. You’re still covering a continent or a massively porous border. From a force projection standpoint, it’s effective in a Dumai’s Well scenario but that’s not what they’re facing. Moreover, the nations of Randland are not united and want/feel the need to have their own force to project power and maintain borders. 
 

1 hour ago, Maia said:

 

Jordan could have also introduced anti-Travelling wards from AoL to curb it in later volumes, since he wanted conventional armies, their manoeuvres and their generals to be important. Honestly, history of the War of Power doesn't even make any sense without them. How could one speak of "holding territory" if non-Shadowspawn enemy forces could gate in anywhere  at any time? Why didn't anybody use Travelling in Rand's ancestral visions? Etc. Yes, Sanderson does something like that with the Dreamspike, but it was far too little and too late.

(Taken out of order because phones). I suppose he could have but, as a Vietnam vet, asymmetric warfare was his experience and that toothpaste doesn’t go back into the tube.  Not having a safe backfield and having dark friend (insurgents) literally anywhere is a part of his reality. 

 

1 hour ago, Maia said:

I think that the books hinted that one of the Oaths may have been introduced due to Hawkwing? Something along the lines of "between the Trolloc Wars and War of the Hundred Years we have adopted these Oaths?". Not looking up the exact quote.

Conceded. However, the point still stands. The 1000 years since the 100 years war is time enough to adopt conventional force models even beyond the previous comment. 

 

1 hour ago, Maia said:

 

Let's consider the Aiel WOs instead. And the role that Aiel as a people were supposed to play in the TG according to their prophecies. They had more time to turn themselves into offensive weapons and bulk up their ranks with learners than the Asha'man, because they already knew what was coming as early as TSR.  Did they do so? Of course not, because wimmin. They were too busy lounging naked in  sweating tents, sipping tea, haranguing Rand and making their apprentices waste time digging holes.

Asha'man went from zero to outstripping all female channelers in a couple of months, because in WoT men are just naturally better at nearly everything. It is what it is.

Aeil =/= Ashaman. One group was actively being cultivated by a dread lord.  Certainly sipping tea and forcing apprentices was a thing but they knew the weaves and still needed to teach fundamentals, including mental fundamentals. We saw much the same thing happening in the tower (as well as numerous cinematic training montages). 

[Gigei]

Ep 5 was the only one I couldn't finish in one go. I hated how everything was so dark for such a long time.

[fionwe1987]

4 hours ago, Maia said:

To Jordan's credit, he himself didn't see his world as a matriarchy, but as one of gender equality. Which is also not really the case,  but still. I don't have the link to his quote anymore, sorry.

I don't think he said gender equality, either. 

Either way, Jordan really doesn't end up following a lot of the early book strictness with regards to gender. He had a separate and different rule, with men being stronger (in the Power) and women needing to link to beat them, then realized somewhere that this isn't any kind of equality, and changed things. 

With regard to women fighting, Rand's (and Perrin's and Mat's) pathology on this is Jordan's own pathology, I think. It's something born of Vietnam, and something he definitely addresses in the books, but it also made him unable to imagine major female characters with the ability to direct a battle.

4 hours ago, Maia said:

I never understood why RJ suddenly decided to make Travelling widely available and completely drop the more restrictive Skimming and Portal Stones in the bargain - shouldn't it have been clear from the start that it would cause massive problems? Transporters were at least baked  into the very basis of Star Trek  for very practical and necessary reasons. He wasn't under any such constraints, though.

I really don't see the problem. While the instantaneous nature of them is unique, in terms of troop movement, the typical gateway is not different from a troop transport. And just like the presence of airplanes didn't end the need for ground forces, neither channeling nor Traveling does.

I totally agree about wards and stuff. We saw Sammael use those, so he would know the instant someone opened a gate near him, but we stop seeing that be used in the Last Battle. The presence of widespread Traveling is huge for many plots, and I'm just fine with it's presence in the books. 

4 hours ago, Maia said:

Let's consider the Aiel WOs instead. And the role that Aiel as a people were supposed to play in the TG according to their prophecies. They had more time to turn themselves into offensive weapons and bulk up their ranks with learners than the Asha'man, because they already knew what was coming as early as TSR.  Did they do so? Of course not, because wimmin. They were too busy lounging naked in  sweating tents, sipping tea, haranguing Rand and making their apprentices waste time digging holes.

There was no bulking up of numbers to do. Wise Ones know to sense the ability to learn, and plenty of women who can learn and want to be Wise Ones are taught. Moiraine disbelieves them, but their numbers make their case, they have nearly 6x the Towers numbers.

They also did spend time training. It's a throwaway line from Egwene that once she's Amyrlin, she decides to teach all the Aes Sedai weaves as payment. Which is why we see them linking, Traveling, etc. Rand sends Wise Ones with several of the Aiel armies he sends out.

Mysteriously, just as huge numbers of male Aiel channelers turned to the Dark were revealed for these women to fight, most of the Wise Ones simply disappeared, so we never do get to see them have their moment. 

4 hours ago, Maia said:

Asha'man went from zero to outstripping all female channelers in a couple of months, because in WoT men are just naturally better at nearly everything. It is what it is.

Wait, how? They got good at blowing stuff up, but that's it, and nothing it the books shows this to be particularly more effective than lightning and fireballs, just more gory and gruesome.

The books are very clear about the Asha'man being a messed up organization taking huge (and to the Aes Sedai and Wise Ones, unacceptable) training losses because they are forcing their trainees. Egwene is the only female channeler we see who gets forced, and I'm not exactly sure you'd be singing praises here if the Wise Ones were doing that to their students at scale. 

4 hours ago, Maia said:

Not this old canard again. Do you seriously claim that an unarmed man taking out a dozen of these trained, armed and armored warriors like in the book would be any less silly? Or Perrin after a couple of hours of combat instruction being able to mow them down ditto?

Yeah there's no single person that scene can get reasonable with, regardless of size or gender. The worse was that Dain asks them to attack her together, but they still come at her one at a time. 

4 hours ago, Maia said:

 I have noticed over the years  that some parts of the audience tend to happily lap up any kind of unrealistic silliness and find it bad-ass - as long as these feats are being performed by a man or a boy.

As soon as it is a woman size, muscle mass and the whole unreality of the situation gets loudly, tediously and repeatedly brought up and accusations of Sueism fly. Something to think about, perhaps?

This is definitely true, but I think the reverse is at play, too. Audiences lap up the idiocies and failures of male only magical organizations all the time. But a beaurocratic, mostly self-involved group of politicians and magicians that happens to be female shouldn't be held to a higher standard. 

Isolationist, elite institutions can fail to achieve their mission, whether male run or female. The Aes Sedai are not extraordinarily incompetent. They're ordinarily incompetent and held to standards I rarely see applied to similar organizations that aren't all female. 

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I totally agree about wards and stuff. We saw Sammael use those, so he would know the instant someone opened a gate near him, but we stop seeing that be used in the Last Battle. The presence of widespread Traveling is huge for many plots, and I'm just fine with it's presence in the books. 

Rand uses those quite often, Graendal does as well.  Is there a scene of Rand teaching that to Logain?  If not its entirely reasonable that the reason we didn't see those weaves were because only 14 people could do it and only one on the good side and he was kind of busy at the LB.

[fionwe1987]

14 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Rand uses those quite often, Graendal does as well.  Is there a scene of Rand teaching that to Logain?  If not its entirely reasonable that the reason we didn't see those weaves were because only 14 people could do it and only one on the good side and he was kind of busy at the LB.

We actually don't ever see Rand adopt the defensive strategies Sammael used, at least not at the kind of citywide scale he did. And if he's unable to teach these weaves to anyone else, the books should have shown that.

What Rand teaches Logain is Deathgates, which are kind of the opposite of wards to detect Traveling.

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

We actually don't ever see Rand adopt the defensive strategies Sammael used, at least not at the kind of citywide scale he did. And if he's unable to teach these weaves to anyone else, the books should have shown that.

I didn't say he was unable to teach, he just didn't, things on his mind and why? The shadow hadn't been using those tactics as their troops primarily cannot use gateways. The only time it is used is with the Sharans and then they use that to devastating result because of the surprise factor. I'd say that was pretty smart of the shadow actually.  The forsaken have their defenses set up so Rand can't just pop in.

Rand doesn't set up the citywide wards no but he knows exactly what Sammael is doing with his; implying knowledge.  Likely standard tactics in the War of Power to stop what Maia was complaining about.  Kind of hard to use gateways for widescale invasions when your enemy knows exactly where you are coming out and when and could probably kill you and all the troops when the gateway opens much like what Rahvin does.  Rand et al likely only survive the assault on Illian because Sammael isn't really trying to kill Rand as per orders.

[Corvinus85]

12 hours ago, Maia said:

Not this old canard again. Do you seriously claim that an unarmed man taking out a dozen of these trained, armed and armored warriors like in the book would be any less silly? Or Perrin after a couple of hours of combat instruction being able to mow them down ditto?

I have a bit of a problem with the scene's execution, not that it happened. When a woman fights multiple opponents, it has pretty much become a Hollywood trope for the fight choreography to always involve the woman climbing on her male opponents, doing all kinds of acrobatics to dispatch them. The only chance a singular fighter would have against multiple opponents is precise punches and kicks that down their opponents quickly. And the book Aiel do that a lot.

Regarding Perrin, I've always factored in him being a ta'veren along with his letting loose a wolf-like savagery. In the show he looked ridiculous.

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I don't think he said gender equality, either. 

Either way, Jordan really doesn't end up following a lot of the early book strictness with regards to gender. He had a separate and different rule, with men being stronger (in the Power) and women needing to link to beat them, then realized somewhere that this isn't any kind of equality, and changed things. 

He did? When and where? AFAIK, the top limit in OP strength for a woman is below that for a man, and that is the WoT Companion I believe.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I don't think anyone is saying they should form a military border at the Blight, just that the sisters should have a constant presence there as that's where the Shadowspawn are active. Have a green or two with the leaders to direct where they would be most effective. Rotate the sisters on the Border to learn how to actually fight. I know the point is that the Tower is ineffective, but they are neglecting their chosen calling so badly it beggars belief. Obviously we are supposed to buy that most green just want the extra warders because reasons. While that may be part of it, the other ajahs at least pretend to do what they have chosen to do.

It's indeed irritating that the Tower in general, and the greens in particular did not lift a finger to help Fal Dara (with the obvious exception of Moiraine and Lan), and that Shienar wasn't even angry about that (with exception of Ingtar, I suppose).

Allthough the Red Ajah are the ajah that is presented as the most unsympathetic, actually they are possibly the only Ajah that's 100% living up to their job description. And the greens in practice probably help them (in dealing with the followers of the false dragons, for example) rather than doing their stated jobs against shadowspawn. The Grey ajay and the yellow ajah probably are useful to a degree while the Blues are just spy masters (and don't do anything with the info, Moiraine and Siuan aside) and brown and white collect knowledge but don't share it, as a rule.

11 hours ago, Maia said:

I never understood why RJ suddenly decided to make Travelling widely available and completely drop the more restrictive Skimming and Portal Stones in the bargain - shouldn't it have been clear from the start that it would cause massive problems? Transporters were at least baked  into the very basis of Star Trek  for very practical and necessary reasons. He wasn't under any such constraints, though.

Jordan could have also introduced anti-Travelling wards from AoL to curb it in later volumes, since he wanted conventional armies, their manoeuvres and their generals to be important. Honestly, history of the War of Power doesn't even make any sense without them. How could one speak of "holding territory" if non-Shadowspawn enemy forces could gate in anywhere  at any time? Why didn't anybody use Travelling in Rand's ancestral visions? Etc. Yes, Sanderson does something like that with the Dreamspike, but it was far too little and too late.

I think the show would be better off either without travelling (except through the ways), where Forsaken meetings could be done in Tel'aran'riod as it happened in ep 5 and often in the books as well, or with a different form of travelling whereby the Forsaken, Rand and maybe a few others can transport themselves only (or the people standing very close to them, for the very strongest, say). That would allow the usual jetpack stuff of zooming all over the map for some characters, while still make it meaningful to hold territory. Someone willing/able to take a small army through the ways could still gain surprise and advantage, as Ishamael and Isam did at least twice in the Two Rivers.

Regarding Aviendha, I do think the fight as shown was over the top and not too convincing. It wouldn't have been better with Gaul instead of her, though, maybe use less whitecloaks and have them clearly underestimate her instead, or have them foolishly try to take her captive rather than kill her. Or show her to be using channeling (inadvertently maybe, as Rand did in show and books), after all she will turn out to be a powerful channeler.

 

[fionwe1987]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

He did? When and where? AFAIK, the top limit in OP strength for a woman is below that for a man, and that is the WoT Companion I believe.

In answers to Q&As, and in function, in the books. The raw amount of the Power a male at the highest strength level draws is indeed more than the strongest woman, but RJ added a dexterity component, which makes it so women are functionally as powerful, meaning they can have the same effects and the same scale as a man 6 levels stronger, specific Talents and strengths in the 5 powers aside.

And you start seeing that in the way the Forsaken interact. Rahvin and Asmodean make claims about their relative abilities with the female Forsaken in books 4 and 5 that get challenged in subsequent books, and shown to be more bravado than anything concrete.

All of which boils down to: you cannot predict the outcome of a fight between almost any two of the Forsaken based purely on gender. And that holds for everyone else, except they know far fewer weaves. 

Basically, I think the power levels in the earlier books were meant to be distributed so that women were functionally weaker, and needed to link  to overcome that weakness, and men couldn't link with each other at all.

In the later books and in the notes and Companion, that's been changed with the raw volume of power interacting with dexterity, which woman are as much better at than men then men are when it comes to the volume of power they draw. 

The linking imbalance remained, leaving the women with more of an advantage, but not one that explored too much in the books. 

In terms of dexterity, we see that no one handles more weaves at once than Egwene, who can make and hold 14 complicated weaves at once, which we don't see even Rand top (except in the Sanderson novels, sometimes, where Rand is conveniently way overpowered when needed). 

Edited September 18, 2023 by fionwe1987