War Declared in Israel

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's an emotional moment and there seems to be very little consideration about how Jews might feel here. We were the ones attacked and yet so many people are quick to talk about how the attackers may feel. Like WTF? I get hating the government of Israel, but put a pause on that right now. 

Again, this is not the time. That's part of the pain. The immediate need to shit on Israel after it suffered a 9/11 type event. If you can't realize that, just stop.

Then it might also not be the time to talk about the necessity of a Jewish state as well. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

This is also not true; the US declared officially a war against Afghanistan. It was ratified by congress and everything. Same with Iraq. 

Anyway, the way that the Israeli law works does not require them to be targeting a state. It's something of a symbolic statement and doesn't mean that Palestine is recognized as a country (especially since the declaration is against Hamas and militant Palestinians), but it does allow for more use of force and requires establishing military objectives. 

I recall authorizations for the “use of force” being adopted by the US Congress never formal “declarations of war”.  I believe the last formal declaration of war adopted by the US Congress was against Germany in the Second World War.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 minute ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Then it might also not be the time to talk about the necessity of a Jewish state as well. 

Stop fucking quoting me. I said I have nothing more to say to you. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's an emotional moment and there seems to be very little consideration about how Jews might feel here. We were the ones attacked and yet so many people are quick to talk about how the attackers may feel. Like WTF? I get hating the government of Israel, but put a pause on that right now. 

Again, this is not the time. That's part of the pain. The immediate need to shit on Israel after it suffered a 9/11 type event. If you can't realize that, just stop.

No one is defending Hamas.  And Palestinians aren't the attackers here anymore than the Israeli people are the Israeli government.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Like I just said, the West Bank. It's more developed than Gaza and can be established as an independent state. With the proper investments it can probably be built up within a decade. 

With Israel building Settlements all over the West Bank how is that possible?

[Toth]

Just now, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

With Israel building Settlements all over the West Bank how is that possible?

To be fair, he includes those in his plan.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Toth said:

To be fair, he includes those in his plan.

It seems, to me, difficult to create a genuine nation State that is broken into hundreds of exclaves by Israeli settlements that Israel will not surrender to Palestinian sovereignty.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

No one is defending Hamas.  And Palestinians aren't the attackers here anymore than the Israeli people are the Israeli government.  

Some are rationalizing their behavior which is gross. 

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

With Israel building Settlements all over the West Bank how is that possible?

They should be forced to abandon them. I've probably said that over 100 times in these various threads. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I recall authorizations for the “use of force” being adopted by the US Congress never formal “declarations of war”.  I believe the last formal declaration of war adopted by the US Congress was against Germany in the Second World War.

Guess that's fair, though again the actual official 'declaration of war' doesn't mean a whole lot in that case either, given that it went through precisely the same kinds of steps that would be required to do an actual declaration of war. 

Again, mostly empty rhetoric. 

On the actual topic of note - one of the more interesting things about my getting reorged to Azure is that I ended up on a global team where one part of that team is in Israel. I regularly work with them and talk with them daily. Something cool I found out as a part of this is that their workweek is Sunday-Thursday - which makes total sense, but I had no idea until I started working with them. Much like talking with friends from Ukraine it was pretty eye opening to hear how people may have to drop off of teams meetings because they were running to shelters from rocket attacks, or their power went out because of an explosion. That's the day-to-day life that most folks in Israel live with. They live with having mandatory military service for everyone with refresher courses in use of weapons. They live with several nations that are still at a technical state of war with them on their border. 

Even if all Muslim-majority countries and organizations immediately stated that they were going to disarm, recognize Israel and establish normal diplomatic relations tomorrow I don't know how Israelis would ever feel 'safe', and a big part of Jewish identity is never, ever forgetting or letting that guard down. I know that's part of my identity in this. 

That shouldn't be the answer to this, and more importantly it won't be an acceptable answer to most of the Jews in Israel; it is the diplomatic equivalent of letting people eat cake. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[Toth]

20 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It seems, to me, difficult to create a genuine nation State that is broken into hundreds of exclaves by Israeli settlements that Israel will not surrender to Palestinian sovereignty.

Which is kind of the point. In another forum someone posted a defense of the settlements from a pro-hardliner think-tank and it unironically stated that breaking up the west bank is integral to Israel's security as no Palestinian state can be allowed to exist as it would immediately pose an existential threat. It then went on with how Palestinians actually aren't even a real people and the west bank isn't even theirs, so private citizens encroaching on it is totally okay. The thing is, I can understand the fear and I am appalled by the hatred of the Palestinians, but with diametrically opposed positions like this, it's a forever conflict that can't ever be solved. I'm thinking definite solutions are all in the realm of fantasy and the only thing that you can work towards is creating a stable status quo and hope that time cools things down over time thanks to that.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Toth

[Spockydog]

30 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Again, this is not the time. That's part of the pain. The immediate need to shit on Israel after it suffered a 9/11 type event. If you can't realize that, just stop.

Dude, explaining something doesn't mean excusing it.

And I'm sorry, but just like the old NRA/GOP bullshit about it not being the time to talk about gun control when twenty American babies have just been murdered, this is PRECISELY the time to talk about this stuff.

So, for a moment, take your head out of the sand mate. Why, exactly, do you think this has happened? Is it because of the stellar way the Palestinians have been treated for the past 80 years? Yesterday they were pulling down fences that have literally  caged them in like animals. Where is your empathy for the normal people of Gaza? Where is your empathy for the innocents killed when the Israelis decide to flatten entire multi-story buildings?

And just to be clear. I'm not for the terrorists. Whether it's the IDF variety, don't try and deny it or I will start posting links, or Hamas. Those people are scum, whether they are beating up old ladies in Mosques, or dragging civilians into Gaza.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Spockydog

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Dude, explaining something doesn't mean excusing it.

No shit, but there's a time and place. Explaining the reasons for why terrorists did what they did while there are still hostages and the dead are being counted isn't it. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

29 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

They should be forced to abandon them. I've probably said that over 100 times in these various threads. 

I agree with you… on this point.  Is such a plan possible given Israel’s current political make up?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[polishgenius]

17 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Whether it's the IDF variety, don't try and deny it or I will start posting links,

 

I think Tywin is misunderstanding at least some of the people he's arguing with in this thread (certainly Mormont) but I really do think we all know each other well enough by now that demanding that he repeatedly condemn Israel's right-wing government and IDF actions just to have the right to an opinion on anything else is unnecessary. He's been doing it for years and years through topics and topics on this forum (often because he's been the only vocally Jewish person commenting on a situation rather than anything he's actually said), we know he does. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by polishgenius

[Rippounet]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Some are rationalizing their behavior which is gross.

Maybe it's just their defense mechanism. I know my rationalization circuits are in overdrive right now - it keeps fear and hatred at bay, to some extent.

I think the problem with the kind of images we are seeing is that they give us a glimpse of humanity at its worst. And we've always known about it of course, but these last few years are really make us live through history in the most vivid way. Its really intense at times. Rationalization is a good reminder that there is more to humans than what we are seeing.

OTOH, I think that's where Hamas made a terrible miscalculation. What was probably supposed to be a terrorist operation became a demonstration of barbarism. This will give Netanyahu a lot of leeway.

16 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

And I'm sorry, but just like the old NRA bullshit about it not being the time to talk about gun control when twenty American babies have been murdered, this is PRECISELY the time to talk about this stuff.

Hard disagree. For all you know, there are people on the board who are worried about relatives, including possibly Ty. It will take a day or two to know who the victims and hostages are.
If this thread is to become a discussion about sionism, fine. But in this case, I respectfully suggest either @Fragile Bird or board moderators change the thread title to reflect this, so that Jews can avoid this thread for at least a couple of days.

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Hard disagree. For all you know, there are people on the board who are worried about relatives, including possibly Ty. It will take a day or two to know who the victims and hostages are.
If this thread is to become a discussion about sionism, fine. But in this case, I respectfully suggest either @Fragile Bird or board moderators change the thread title to reflect this, so that Jews can avoid this thread for at least a couple of days.

Sure thing. Imma zip it.

[Padraig]

27 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Maybe it's just their defense mechanism.

Right.  You can definitely make the argument that it isn't the time.  Take a breath. 

I do understand people trying to understand how this could happen.  But if you are very familiar with the topic, you know oh too well and its just stating the obvious (or the obvious arguments).

My condolences to the families of all those who have lost their lives from this attack.  It is truly appalling.

[Rippounet]

33 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Sure thing. Imma zip it.

I think we all understand how these attacks are the consequence of Israeli policies, and that this must be acknowledged.
Sionism otoh is a different topic, and one that has the potential to be very intense at this moment. I don't think it should be off the table, just that people bringing it up should be aware of what it might immediately get to.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I agree with you… on this point.  Is such a plan possible given Israel’s current political make up?

No and that's the problem. There are rational solutions, but nobody wants to give an inch. It's all so dumb. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No and that's the problem. There are rational solutions, but nobody wants to give an inch. It's all so dumb. 

Agreed.  God be with you and your family.