War Declared in Israel

[Relic]

Hamas just announced it will publicly execute a hostage for every civilian target in Gaza, starting now.  This horror is surreal. 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Relic

[IheartIheartTesla]

4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

The European Union (the largest contributor of aid, historically) has suspended all aid.

Luckily, saner heads have prevailed.

Quote

The European Commission have finally issued a statement offering clarification of an announcement that it was suspending “all payments” to Palestine in the wake of the Hamas attack.

It said it was “launching an urgent review of the EU’s assistance for Palestine”.

In addition to existing safeguards to ensure no money goes to Hamas-backed projects, “the objective of this review is to ensure that no EU funding indirectly enables any terrorist organization to carry out attacks against Israel”.

The part below is key though:

Quote

This review does not concern humanitarian assistance provided under European Civil Protection and Humanitarian Aid Operations (ECHO).

Regarding the blockade of amenities to Gaza, would also be interesting to see how Egypt responds and if it can help in that regard

[DireWolfSpirit]

Despite the WSJ claiming it, Secretary Blinken has seen no evidence that Iran has helped with the carrying out of this weeks attacks on Israel.

From Democracy Now-

The Wall Street Journal is reporting Iran helped plan Hamas’s attack on Israel. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he has not seen any evidence to substantiate the claim.

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Despite the WSJ claiming it, Secretary Blinken has seen no evidence that Iran has helped with the carrying out of this weeks attacks on Israel.

From Democracy Now-

The Wall Street Journal is reporting Iran helped plan Hamas’s attack on Israel. U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he has not seen any evidence to substantiate the claim.

Someone not me Elsewhere observed:

“Operational Role?” This isn’t D-Day or the Falklands War logistics train. It’s a bunch of guys busting holes in a fence and riding in on motorbikes and Toyotas with AKs and body armor that anybody -- including us, particularly US! --  can buy online; they could get all the intelligence they needed on the layouts of the Gaza border towns from Google maps.

Unless the WSJ has a scoop that some of the fighters were Iranian special ops, this is just Murdoch’s pet Likudniks trying to pressure Biden.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

Hamas just announced it will publicly execute a hostage for every civilian target in Gaza, starting now.  This horror is surreal. 

 

Wow… what does Hamas think that will accomplish?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Corvinus85]

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Someone not me Elsewhere observed:

“Operational Role?” This isn’t D-Day or the Falklands War logistics train. It’s a bunch of guys busting holes in a fence and riding in on motorbikes and Toyotas with AKs and body armor that anybody -- including us, particularly US! --  can buy online; they could get all the intelligence they needed on the layouts of the Gaza border towns from Google maps.

Unless the WSJ has a scoop that some of the fighters were Iranian special ops, this is just Murdoch’s pet Likudniks trying to pressure Biden.

Actual operational assistance in this unlikely; ammunition and other equipment, yes. How does Hamas have so many rockets if they have been living under siege for years? How did they get freaking powergliders to cross the border?

[Werthead]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wow… what does Hamas think that will accomplish?

Headlines, and making them look tough.

The fact it will embolden further Israeli escalation is also likely a strong factor in their calculations.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Headlines, and making them look tough.

The fact it will embolden further Israeli escalation is also likely a strong factor in their calculations.

They want Israel to attempt to Crush them… and the Israeli Government is likely to oblige… with bells on…

:sad:

[Werthead]

Number of Israeli dead now exceeds 900, number of Palestinians approaching 700. This is horrendous.

Hamas has (rather heavily qualified) its earlier threats against Israeli hostages, saying they will execute hostages only in return for un-warned strikes against civilian targets. Apparently they seem to agree military targets are fair game (although they will likely obfuscate the two, given the sheer density of the Gaza Strip), and even civilian targets as long as Israel provides a warning and enough time to clear the area.

Perhaps they're working on the basis that if they followed through on the promise, they'd run out of hostages almost instantly (Israel hit more than 500 targets last night alone).

[Kalbear]

14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wow… what does Hamas think that will accomplish?

So you keep asking and getting apparently not satisfactory answers, so I'll try another one. 

Hamas was in political jeopardy. Their support was waning and others were gaining power. One possible motive for this - beyond doing the thing that they openly campaigned on doing - is that this is likely going to get a whole lot of Palestinians killed at the hands of Israel, and they may be calculating that that will get them more votes. 

That said - the idea that there needs to be some rational discussion of their motives is outmoded and invalid thinking. People make their choices and then rationalize them later. This isn't some chess match. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

So you keep asking and getting apparently not satisfactory answers, so I'll try another one. 

Hamas was in political jeopardy. Their support was waning and others were gaining power. One possible motive for this - beyond doing the thing that they openly campaigned on doing - is that this is likely going to get a whole lot of Palestinians killed at the hands of Israel, and they may be calculating that that will get them more votes. 

That said - the idea that there needs to be some rational discussion of their motives is outmoded and invalid thinking. People make their choices and then rationalize them later. This isn't some chess match. 

So… flail?  We’re in the worst timeline.

[Crixus]

14 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Part of my brain is saying, if Israeli soldiers cross into Gaza and just gun down people in the streets I won’t give a shit. The other part says two wrongs don’t make a right, but Hamas has many hostages and I don’t expect them to live.

Wow. It’s entirely possible to be appalled and fully condemn the atrocious, barbaric attack on civilians that Hamas has done, and be shocked at this sort of statement - how is this justified? Seems like you’re not aware of the constant atrocities IDF has inflicted on Palestinians for decades. Quite revealing, how many people in the West either seem oblivious or completely ok with that shit happening on a daily basis. Context matters, and pointing that out doesn’t mean one is condoning what Hamas has done. Sick of the blatant bias and one-sidedness. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Crixus

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

So… flail?  We’re in the worst timeline.

I didn't say that. I'm saying that trying to figure out the rational objectives to someone who has said, openly, that they want to end the state of Israel is either an exercise in futility or has already answered the question. 

What did they hope to achieve? Massive harm to Israel and Israelis. That's really it. Second hope is probably to turn more Palestinians against even the vaguest hope of diplomatic solutions. Why does it need to be more than that? 

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Wow. It’s entirely possible to be appalled and fully condemn the atrocious, barbaric attack on civilians that Hamas has done, but how is this statement justified? Seems like you’re not aware of the constant atrocities IDF has inflicted on Palestinians for decades. Quite revealing, how many people in the West either seem oblivious or completely ok with that shit happening on a daily basis. Context matters, and pointing that out doesn’t mean one is condoning what Hamas has done. Sick of the blatant bias and one-sidedness. 

Yeah, its just a sick horrific thing to say. Sadly, it probably echoes what a lot of Westerners are thinking. 

[Werthead]

Egypt is keeping its border with Gaza open for humanitarian aid, although I expect Israel to start asking some very hard questions about how Hamas is getting so many missiles, rockets and drones into the Strip despite a very thorough blockade.

There's definitely a feeling of unease about this situation that we have not seen before. The UN Security Council was apparently "sombre" at the reports they heard behind closed doors, and China - which has good ties with the Arabs and Israelis and traditionally steered clear of this crisis since they see no profit in sticking their head in a problem with no easy solution - made an unusually strong statement in that it favoured de-escalation and immediate negotiations towards a two-state solution, putting them on the same page as everyone else. Even Iran backtracked like nobody's business to say they had zero knowledge of the attack, despite supporting the right of Palestinian resistance (given Iran's normal rhetoric, this was positively mild).

Israel cutting the electricity, food and water into Gaza and apparently planning a ground invasion could result in casualties like nothing we've seen before; there are 2.3 million people living in 141 square miles, or roughly the same population living in a smaller area than the New York borough of Queens. Putting a hundred thousand soldiers, hundreds of tanks, major artillery systems in there without causing massive civilian casualties will be likely impossible (and I'm wondering how much of the hardcore Hamas fighters will simply flee or hide, leaving civilians to take the brunt of the attack).

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Israel cutting the electricity, food and water into Gaza and apparently planning a ground invasion could result in casualties like nothing we've seen before

That is the plan. To kill as many Palestinians as possible.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

That is the plan. To kill as many Palestinians as possible.

And I think Hamas wants this to happen.  

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And I think Hamas wants this to happen.  

Both 'sides' want it to happen. Hamas so they can get more support, the Israeli government so they can eradicate the Palestinians. There is a reason both sides are content to see the Palestinian people with lack of food, water, medicine etc. and being treated like vermin for decades. It makes them desperate, more prone to extremism. The quality of life there is so awful many probably have a death wish. The desperation aids Hamas by giving them more support, and aids the Israeli government by making it more likely that they will be attacked and can then counter-attack in retaliation and kill as many as they can get away with.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

Part of my brain is saying, if Israeli soldiers cross into Gaza and just gun down people in the streets I won’t give a shit.

 

I'm sorry I know there's a lot of emotion and anger at the moment but this is a genuinely sickening thing to say. What the fuck. 

 

 

 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

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