Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Do we know if our Israeli boarders are okay? We should ask the same for Palestinian boarders. Palestinians =/= Hamas. There's also the psychological pain of those living outside of Israel and Gaza and in that sense each side is pretty broken right now. Zorral, Ser Reptitious, Jace, Extat and 6 others 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Why are the US and Israel trying to stop the investigation of the International Criminal Court into this matter? Do they realise how it makes them look? I know the Israeli government probably doesn't care, but what about the Americans? Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Just now, Tywin et al. said: We should ask the same for Palestinian boarders. Palestinians =/= Hamas. Thank you. Wanted to say the same but didn't know how. In regards to the "human animal" comment, I wonder what percentage of Gaza is directly affiliated with Hamas. Wholesale bombing seems like a bad idea when you're searching for what might be needles in haystacks. I know Hamas has wide scale support in the strip, but when it comes down to actual members, it is most likely a very small percentage of the overall population. Crixus and Ser Scot A Ellison 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Why are the US and Israel trying to stop the investigation of the International Criminal Court into this matter? Do they realise how it makes them look? I know the Israeli government probably doesn't care, but what about the Americans? Biden is fucking this up. Not exactly a surprise coming from a guy who supported the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. Edited October 10, 2023 by Relic The hairy bear, dbergkvist and Crixus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Relic said: wonder what percentage of Gaza is directly affiliated with Hamas Half of the people in Gaza are children, so... dbergkvist and Crixus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Half of the people in Gaza are children, so... Sigh. Right. What's the average life expectancy in Gaza? Edit - nm, just looked it up. The median age in the Gaza Strip is a shocking 19.8 years. Wow. Edited October 10, 2023 by Relic DireWolfSpirit, Crixus and JGP 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbergkvist Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Someone really has to step in before it is too late. At this point, it looks like only Hezbollah or Iran have any intention of doing that. Putin and Xi Jinping have made some statements of disapproval of Israels' behavior, but not given any indication that they will intervene. And the other players are on Israel's side. Edited October 10, 2023 by dbergkvist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 48 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: Which in practice can mean a lot of things. In reality, Israel is a religiously very tense country, and without a doubt discriminative based on religion. Denmark is not secular, meanwhile countries like Turkey or Russia are. Or the vocally very anti-immigrant Poland and Hungary. Or my own country, Romania. Being secular doesn't disqualify a country of moving on the spectrum of religious freedom, and religious discrimination. And Israel is not a shining beacon of religious freedom, to say the least. As you pointed out this is a problem that many countries have. There is a strong right-wing religious element in Israel as there are in many countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Israel has bombed a refugee camp where all the people they told to leave the city went... 4 minutes ago, dbergkvist said: At this point, it looks like only Hezbollah or Iran have any intention of doing that. Putin and Xi Jinping have made some statements of disapproval of Israels' behavior, but not given any indication that they will intervene. And the other players are on Israel's side. Has been this way for decades. Time and time again Israel gets away with mass slaughter of innocent Palestinians. How many have to die before people do something? Crixus and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, Relic said: Sigh. Right. What's the average life expectancy in Gaza? Edit - nm, just looked it up. The median age in the Gaza Strip is a shocking 19.8 years. Wow. Population is growing really fast in Palestine. It has more than doubled since 1990. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 hours ago, Darryk said: Well Israel obviously is excellent when it comes to women's rights, The current government's New Judiciary is doing its best to change that which is why hundreds of thousands of women have been part of the protests against it in the last months. All part of Israel's ruling class (also very very very corrupt) push to fascism. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/02/israel-judicial-women-equality-netanyahu/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-25/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israels-government-frightening-steps-against-women-explained/00000189-8d4c-d95c-a7ab-fd7dec9e0000 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-women-form-human-chains-protest-planned-judicial-overhaul-2023-03-08/ https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-736372 And hundreds more links if you wanna go look. Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Zorral said: The current government's New Judiciary is doing its best to change that which is why hundreds of thousands of women have been part of the protests against it in the last months. All part of Israel's ruling class (also very very very corrupt) push to fascism. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/02/israel-judicial-women-equality-netanyahu/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-25/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israels-government-frightening-steps-against-women-explained/00000189-8d4c-d95c-a7ab-fd7dec9e0000 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-women-form-human-chains-protest-planned-judicial-overhaul-2023-03-08/ https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-736372 And hundreds more links if you wanna go look. Historically excellent I should've said, but yes there are issues emerging now because of Netanyahu's right-wing fascist coalition, which in my view is no different from Hamas. But hopefully he won't get his way as Israelis will resist this en-masse, they are a mostly secular country, the religious right is a minority. You could point to similar issues in other countries, for example Republicans repealing Roe vs Wade. Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy89 Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, dbergkvist said: At this point, it looks like only Hezbollah or Iran have any intention of doing that. Putin and Xi Jinping have made some statements of disapproval of Israels' behavior, but not given any indication that they will intervene. And the other players are on Israel's side. Well this is touches their beloved sovereignty. If they now start interfering with other countries "internal" problems they have no standing to complain when outsiders "interfere" in their countries in turn. Fragile Bird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: Why are the US and Israel trying to stop the investigation of the International Criminal Court into this matter? Neither Israel nor the US are party to the ICC, and many nations in the West so not recognize Palestine as a state either, which all calls into question the ICC's authority to be involved. For that matter, most of the Arab nations are also not parties to the ICC. Fragile Bird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Darryk said: As you pointed out this is a problem that many countries have. There is a strong right-wing religious element in Israel as there are in many countries. Well, yes, of course. But Israel's level of religious freedom is comparable to that of its neighbouring muslim countries, not the Western World, which you would call democratic. My other examples were to show that being constitutionally secular doesn't mean much alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Ran said: Neither Israel nor the US are party to the ICC, and many nations in the West so not recognize Palestine as a state either, which all calls into question the ICC's authority to be involved. For that matter, most of the Arab nations are also not parties to the ICC. I know they are not party to it, but why are they trying to stall the investigation which is about Israel's killing of civilians, not about Palestine as a state (as far as I am aware). If Israel is not killing civilians they would have nothing to worry about... Also, West Bank and Gaza are not recognised as part of Israel but as illegally occupied territories. Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory illegal: UN rights commission | UN News Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I know they are not party to it, but why are they trying to stall the investigation which is about Israel's killing of civilians Countries that are not party to the ICC obviously do not believe the ICC has any jurisdiction to investigate them. Because the US and Israel also do not recognize the state of Palestine, they do not believe the ICC had jurisdiction to investigate events connected to the state of Palestine since from their perspective that state does not exist at this time. This is all pretty straightforward. Edited October 10, 2023 by Ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Ran said: This is all pretty straightforward. And yet, still disingenuous bullshit on the part of the US and Israel. I mean, for a long, long ass time I've wanted Canada to answer to a Human Rights tribunal regarding its treatment of Indigenous Peoples herein, but Canada voted against UNDRIP [as did the US, Australia, and New Zealand] so, straightforward self interest. --- re: Israel and Palestine specifically, been watching [as much I can stomach] aghast. Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ran said: Countries that are not party to the ICC obviously do not believe the ICC has any jurisdiction to investigate them. Because the US and Israel also do not recognize the state of Palestine, they do not believe the ICC had jurisdiction to investigate events connected to the state of Palestine since from their perspective that state does not exist at this time. I am not talking about Palestine existing as a state or not, I am talking about the territories not being a part of Israel since they are illegally occupied. This is the position according to international law. So the US is accepting this blatant violation of international law if it treats these illegally occupied territories as part of Israel. Not saying whether Palestine exists as a state or is recognised as such, but the occupied territories are legally not part of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: Well, yes, of course. But Israel's level of religious freedom is comparable to that of its neighbouring muslim countries, not the Western World, which you would call democratic. My other examples were to show that being constitutionally secular doesn't mean much alone. There are more Muslim citizens of Israel with full civil and religious rights than there are Jews in all of the Middle East and Europe combined because of genocide and ethnic cleansing against the ancient Jewish communities in those lands. You could not be more wrong. The current government is propped up by historically fringe parties with insane right wing ideologies, and certainly dragging Israel in the wrong direction, but Israel past and present is not comparable to the religious oppression of its neighbors or even democratic European countries. The sustained protests against that government, even by people who voted for it, attest to the democratic nature of Israel and most its population. Even Israel's most right wing governments protect a status quo that gives Muslims more rights at the holiest Jewish site than Jews have, something inconceivable in any neighboring country, where few Jews remain at all. Edited October 10, 2023 by Bael's Bastard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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