War Declared in Israel

[GrimTuesday]

Something to consider as we hear the horrific reports in regards to what happened to Israeli citizens in Kfar Azar is that the Israeli military is known for straight up lying to the press. While I don't doubt that it was a massacre you shouldn't take anything that comes from the IDF at face value. Israel knows they are in a propaganda war (I use propaganda in a neutral way here, it is neither a good or bad thing) and beefing up the narrative of Hamas' brutality help soothe righteous outrage at Israel's criminal bombing of Gaza.

Remember what happened with Shireen Abu Akleh last year, remember the reports that were heard about mass rapes in the beginning of this crisis that were unsubstantiated and have been walked back due to the lack of evidence.

To be clear, it is entirely possible and I would say unsurprising if it were true, fucked up shit happens in situations like this and I believe that Hamas is capable of such inhumanity, just be aware that we are seeing what  two sides that have an interest in making the other side out to be monsters and the blood thirsty media that just wants to drive clicks and catch as many eyes as possible and knows that the more sensational, the better.

[Craving Peaches]

All the human rights organisations are warning that the blockade of food, water, medicine and electricity for ordinary Palestinians is going to result in a humanitarian catastrophe. Why does Biden think sending in an aircraft carrier is going to help things?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Ran said:

I mean, on balance, they do. There's a reason far more people would like to live in the United States than in Russia or China.

I'm talking specifically about the issue of blocking investigations into atrocious crimes. They are coming off as great hypocrites here.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

All the human rights organisations are warning that the blockade of food, water, medicine and electricity for ordinary Palestinians is going to result in a humanitarian catastrophe. Why does Biden think sending in an aircraft carrier is going to help things?

Because it probably will.

Having a US aircraft carrier does a few things. It makes the US stance very clear. It gives the US a lot of power to project very quickly. But, most importantly, it almost guarantees that no other country dares escalate things any further. This isn't going to be used to go blow shit up in Gaza (maybe for special ops, but not general attacks); the main goal is to ensure that Iran or Syria don't get into the mix, and probably will calm down Lebanon too. 

[Daeron the Daring]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's a reason far more people would like to live in the United States than in Russia or China.

The high ground of prosperity which was created by no means of imperialism?

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Something to consider as we hear the horrific reports in regards to what happened to Israeli citizens in Kfar Azar is that the Israeli military is known for straight up lying to the press.

So it's worth pointing out that other journalists have come out and said they have confirmed some of the reporting.

That said, I too have always urged caution when it comes to reports of atrocities, particularly things like mass rapes, baby killings, etc. Some may remember vivid, horrifying stories of Iraqi soldiers entering Kuwaiti maternity wards and bayonetting babies... but it was all a passel of lies from Iraqi dissident groups that got circulated in the media.

There's no reason not to wait awhile before passing judgment on these things. It's clear that terrible things happened at Kfar Azar... but all the terrible things? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.

  

1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The high ground of prosperity which was created by no means of imperialism?

Oh, Russia knows all about imperialism. Feel free to ask Tibetians about Chinese imperialism, too. When it comes to making prosperity, the U.S. has just been better than everyone else at it. For good and for ill.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Ran

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

Probably because Hamas was using it for its nefarious purposes?

I mean, on balance, they do. There's a reason far more people would like to live in the United States than in Russia or China.

But it's not like they have the high ground in every and all areas.

That’s the point.  The West - by which I mean the US and its allies - has plenty of faults, but consider the alternatives.

Russia, China, IS, Hamas etc.

 

[GrimTuesday]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm talking specifically about the issue of blocking investigations into atrocious crimes. They are coming off as great hypocrites here.

We just sat through over 2 decades of America and our allies committing war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq in the course of the War on Terror and seeing zero consequences for it. We have very little credibility here, not sure why anyone with even a cursory knowledge of American foreign policy would expect anything different.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

So it's worth pointing out that other journalists have come out and said they have confirmed some of the reporting.

That said, I too have always urged caution when it comes to reports of atrocities, particularly things like mass rapes, baby killings, etc. Some may remember vivid, horrifying stories of Iraqi soldiers entering Kuwaiti maternity wards and bayonetting babies... but it was all a passel of lies from Iraqi dissident groups that got circulated in the media.

There's no reason not to wait awhile before passing judgment on these things. It's clear that terrible things happened at Kfar Azar... but all the terrible things? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.

 

Terrible things absolutely happened, the death of any civilian Israeli or Palestinian is terrible and it is an indisputable fact there are certainly civilians that were murdered in cold blood at Kfar Azar. The beheaded babies thing seems to come from IDF sources and the only journalist I have seen who has claimed to know it for a fact has admitted that her sources she used to verify her reporting was IDF soldiers who think it happened. No doubt there are dead babies, some might even have been beheaded, intentionally or unintentionally, but the media is jumping on the most sensationalist stories because it benefits them.

[Northern Sword]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

All the human rights organisations are warning that the blockade of food, water, medicine and electricity for ordinary Palestinians is going to result in a humanitarian catastrophe. Why does Biden think sending in an aircraft carrier is going to help things?

This is the sort of thing that can start spinning out of control real quick. Too many parties involved. I agree with @Kalnak the Magnificent, The Ford battle group is probably to prevent escalation. With war in Europe, now the ME, maybe China/Taiwan next. Could be a preemptively trying to hold off WW3. 

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Some may remember vivid, horrifying stories of Iraqi soldiers entering Kuwaiti maternity wards and bayonetting babies... but it was all a passel of lies from Iraqi dissident groups that got circulated in the media.

Created including video by a professional PR firm.

I always am skeptical about infant murders until proven otherwise -- this was already deliberate propaganda in WWI.  But rapes, I tend to be far less skeptical about.    Because history.  Even Ukraine. Even without war, these happen, and they are happening all over, right now. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Zorral

[GrimTuesday]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Created including video by a professional PR firm.

I always am skeptical about infant murders until proven otherwise -- this was already deliberate propaganda in WWI.  But rapes, I tend to be far less skeptical about.    Because history.  Even Ukraine. Even without war, these happen, and they are happening all over, right now. 

I think that while rape is a known part of war, I think there is a context where we should be skeptical about the rape narrative here. There is a recent history of painting specifically Muslims as rapists and I think Israel and their mouth pieces understand that is a powerful piece of propaganda, especially in the West.

I'm sure that rapes have happened, they always happen when violence is involved, but the reports of it happening on a mass scale is very likely propaganda. It like how the images we are seeing of those who have been killed or taken captive are young and generally attractive, this is absolutely a purposeful media strategy.

[Snowy89]

24 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

We just sat through over 2 decades of America and our allies committing war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq in the course of the War on Terror and seeing zero consequences for it. We have very little credibility here, not sure why anyone with even a cursory knowledge of American foreign policy would expect anything different.

Terrible things absolutely happened, the death of any civilian Israeli or Palestinian is terrible and it is an indisputable fact there are certainly civilians that were murdered in cold blood at Kfar Azar. The beheaded babies thing seems to come from IDF sources and the only journalist I have seen who has claimed to know it for a fact has admitted that her sources she used to verify her reporting was IDF soldiers who think it happened. No doubt there are dead babies, some might even have been beheaded, intentionally or unintentionally, but the media is jumping on the most sensationalist stories because it benefits them.

How do you unintentionally behead a baby? Other than that I trust Israeli sources only marginally more than Hamas, I will wait for the pictures.

[Daeron the Daring]

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

Oh, Russia knows all about imperialism. Feel free to ask Tibetians about Chinese imperialism, too. When it comes to making prosperity, the U.S. has just been better than everyone else at it. For good and for ill.

The prosperity of the US (like many other 'western' countries, of course) is inseparable from its past and present of imperialistic exploitation. So allow me to care about that when you gloss over that, and not the unfortunate subjects of russian or chinese imperialism.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Job Snow said:

How do you unintentionally behead a baby? Other than that I trust Israeli sources only marginally more than Hamas, I will wait for the pictures.

There are plenty of instances of people being beheaded by gunfire, and I imagine it would be even easier with a baby considering depending on how old they are they can't even hold their heads up. In any case a dead baby is a dead baby, it's just a matter how it is spun to appeal to the emotions of those watching or reading from afar.

[Northern Sword]

19 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I think that while rape is a known part of war, I think there is a context where we should be skeptical about the rape narrative here. There is a recent history of painting specifically Muslims as rapists and I think Israel and their mouth pieces understand that is a powerful piece of propaganda, especially in the West.

I'm sure that rapes have happened, they always happen when violence is involved, but the reports of it happening on a mass scale is very likely propaganda. It like how the images we are seeing of those who have been killed or taken captive are young and generally attractive, this is absolutely a purposeful media strategy.

Being skeptical of propaganda I get.  But this wasn't a battle ground. This was a sneak attack on civilians. Regardless of recent history. A choice was made to attack Israel in this manner.

A surprise attack targeting civilians at a music festival and mass killing of women and children.  Then taking hostages on top of that while threatening to murder them.  I'm sick to my stomach thinking of 40 dead infants. 

Hamas have escalated this to a dangerous place. No matter whos propaganda you believe. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Northern Sword

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The former expulsion of jews from arabic countries is irrelevant in this scenario. It happened, it was unjust.

It has everything to do with it. Jews have a long history of violence against them and disregarding that completely ignores why they feel the way the do. That's not a justification for many of their actions, but to hand wave it away pretty much denies their experiences. 

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Being skeptical of propaganda I get.  But this wasn't a battle ground. This was a sneak attack on civilians. Regardless of recent history. A choice was made to attack Israel in this manner.

A surprise attack targeting civilians at a music festival and mass killing of women and children's.  Then taking hostages on top of that while threatening to murder them.  I'm sick to my stomach thinking of 40 dead infants. 

Hamas have escalated this to a dangerous place. No matter whos propaganda you believe. 

Nothing you say here conflicts with what I said. Nowhere did I say this was acceptable or righteous or excusable, but we have to always bear in mind that the media has an incentive to play up the atrocities of the Palestinians and downplay those of the Israelis because of each side's relative proximity to power.

Hamas' escalation is the natural result of Israel's apartheid polices, even Israeli outlets like Haaretz, which would hardly be considered pro-Hamas, has laid the blame for this at the feet of Bibi and his right wing allies.

[Hmmm]

13 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

There are plenty of instances of people being beheaded by gunfire, and I imagine it would be even easier with a baby considering depending on how old they are they can't even hold their heads up. In any case a dead baby is a dead baby, it's just a matter how it is spun to appeal to the emotions of those watching or reading from afar.

I lost my old account due to some password error a while back, and now only use this one to lurk the boards from time to time. But now I have to make an exception... what the actual fuck?

[GrimTuesday]

Just now, Hmmm said:

I lost my old account due to some password error a while back, and now only use this one to lurk the boards from time to time. But now I have to make an exception... what the actual fuck?

I fail to see what is wrong with this, I was asked how it is possible to unintentionally behead someone, and I explained that guns can in fact decapitate someone even if you're not intending to.

Beyond that, differentiating between a baby that was murdered in one way vs another is absolutely a method to invoke certain emotions. The important thing here is that babies, fucking babies were murdered and that should never happen whether it is when Hamas terrorists slaughter a family in their home with a gun, or a family that is killed when Israeli missiles level an apartment block in Gaza.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The high ground of prosperity which was created by no means of imperialism?

Are you going to claim… with a straight face… that Russia… is an “anti-imperial” power?