Relic Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Just now, Craving Peaches said: Supposedly it was to interrupt diplomacy between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Sadly, you're wasting your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Aside from the Scottish Independence Referendum... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 BBC News now routinely lies about all kinds of shit. dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: What? They doctored clips of pro-independence politicians speaking to make it look like they couldn't answer the questions being asked. 12 minutes ago, Relic said: Sadly, you're wasting your time. ? dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: They doctored clips of pro-independence politicians speaking to make it look like they couldn't answer the questions being asked. ? Link, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, SeanF said: For those who think that accounts of what Hamas actually did at Kfar Aza have been exaggerated, there is Jeremy Bowen's report on the BBC website. The BBC is pretty reliable, and honest, in its reporting of events. If you're talking about murdered babies, Mark Urban of the BBC just said on Newsnight that they've had no verification of that particular story. Edited October 10, 2023 by Spockydog dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 12 minutes ago, SeanF said: For those who think that accounts of what Hamas actually did at Kfar Aza have been exaggerated, there is Jeremy Bowen's report on the BBC website. The BBC is pretty reliable, and honest, in its reporting of events. The BBC is and at the same time isn't reliable. They do historically have high journalistic standards however that does not mean they don't toe the line when it comes to certain things and often doesn't challenge the established order. I read the article that I think you're referencing, and I don't think that there is anything especially objectionable in terms of sensationalism or that kind of thing, but that is not necessarily representative of the media as a whole which will often start spreading unconfirmed information that is more for the purposes of catching eyes and getting clicks than doing good, factual journalism. This even more of a problem in the Elon Musk age of Twitter where it can be really hard to figure out what information is real, and what is not. dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer's right hand Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) The BBC article only mentions that a soldier told the journalist that some of the dead had been beheaded. No confirmation of beheaded babies. Actually no mention of babies at all. The only uncovered corpses the journalist seems to have seen were Hamas fighters. The dead civilians and guards had already been covered with plastic or something else. A sleeping bag was mentioned in one case. Edited October 10, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand Ran, dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 What do we think of Egyptian claims that they gave specific warnings of the Hamas attack to the Israelis? dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) Yeah, the BBC article confirms some things others reported (there are dead civilians, signs of bloodshed in homes), but the most shocking claims aren't there and certainly not verified. Like I said, atrocities happened there, there is no doubt. But when extraordinary claims are made, it doesn't hurt to reserve judgment until there is evidence. @Spockydog Very murky. Netanyahu denies it. Presumably if the claimed call did happen despite his denial, more info will likely leak to the press. At the same time, Egypt lying about it isn't far-fetched, as they would not mind smearing the Israeli government. Edited October 10, 2023 by Ran Spockydog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Link, please. https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/bbc-bias-and-scots-referendum-new-report/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28079812.amp https://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014/06/30/i-was-bullied-bbc-over-academic-report-indyref-bias-scottish-media-blackout-must If you want a link to that specific clip, it might take me a bit longer as it was in 2014 and i don't remember the exact date, just that my parents were very annoyed with it and it shook my mum's trust in the BBC. From what I can recall, they had asked Alex Salmond some questions, and the following day they were doing a shorter 'recap' clip, but they cut it off at the end as to make it look like he couldn't answer one of the interviewers questions, when in fact he had done so in the full interview. Edited October 10, 2023 by Craving Peaches Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) Apparently more Hamas terrorists were able to cross the barrier into Israel, this time towards Ashkelon. The IDF says it has contained the incursion, but they made it as far as the Ashkelon industrial district. On the subject of numbers, a reliable estimate of Hamas's strength has not really been made. The al-Qassam Brigades are its formal military force, but these are supplemented by large numbers of auxiliaries (militia, effectively) and members of other Palestinian groups who are not formal members of Hamas, and have various ideological disputes with it, but cooperate with it in self-defence. Estimates of Hamas's military strength (core and allied) range from around 15,000 on the low end to 40,000 at the high. The majority would be based in Gaza, but not all; Hamas maintains a small but significant presence in the West Bank, and its leadership is mostly based outside the country. Hamas has cooperation agreements with Hezbollah, but also some issues with it; it's not uncommon for one group to take action but not inform the other, as appears to be in this case, despite the fact that a coordinated action would cause Israel logistical issues. Hamas is backed by Iran, but its members tend to get rather pissed off at suggestions that it's Iran's puppet or dances to its tune (something they ascribe more to Hezbollah). They generally describe their relationship as an alliance (and sometimes one only of convenience). Hamas also had a serious falling-out with the Assad regime in Syria about twelve years ago and sided with one of the Islamic opposition groups to his rule, so they're not natural allies. There's been some desultory attempts to repair relations with Syria recently, brokered by Iran, but not with much enthusiasm. Hamas is also not entirely a coherent organisation; local groups sometimes operate on their own authority whilst claiming authority from the central leadership (which is either denied or agreed with after the fact, generally based on success). The main leadership being based outside Palestinian territory also means that it can be slow to react to fast-moving events on the ground, and devolves command in that case to the al-Qassam Brigades. The organisation is publicly dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic Republic in the Palestinian territories as part of its 1988 founding charter. However, different leaders have offered dramatically varying interpretations of this. Different personnel have said, at different times, that their commitment to the destruction of Israel could be rescinded in return for Israeli policy shifts, and even extend to a recognition of Israel's right to exist as a further concession as part of the peace process. It has pointed out that the PLO's recognition of Israel's existence failed to secure long-term gains (ignoring that Arafat's failure to deliver on the promise of the 1990s peace process waste was at least partially if not majorly to blame for this), so Hamas will keep that in its pocket until a more decisive moment. At other times Hamas has suggested it could put recognition of Israel to a Palestinian national referendum, or that Hamas has even de facto already recognised Israel's existence because of its commitment to armed struggle against it. Israel's general position is that Hamas is full of shit and they can't negotiate even behind the scenes with an organisation publicly dedicated to its annihilation, and they've never backed up their occasional moderate suggestions with action (Hamas has claimed they did extend possible recognition of Israel in a letter to George W. Bush in 2007 after winning power in Gaza, but received no response). Obviously right now, and after the heavy deterioration of the situation in Gaza in recent years, whatever "moderate" voices in Hamas that once existed (the Israeli government would probably take the view they never existed, and Hamas's claims to moderation were only ever for PR purposes) have either ceased to exist, or are staying very quiet. 19 minutes ago, Spockydog said: What do we think of Egyptian claims that they gave specific warnings of the Hamas attack to the Israelis? Entirely possible. Egypt is bitterly opposed to Hamas and one of the reasons the Egypt-Gaza border crossing is so heavily policed is they don't want Hamas to extend its influence into their country (and is the reason why Egypt doesn't get involved in the dispute more openly, given their proximity and former, temporary governance of the Gaza Strip before 1967). If so, why Israel didn't heed it would be interesting to discover. More disturbing would be if Israel received the message but simply didn't have the bandwidth to simultaneously secure the Gaza border and keep up its military presence in the West Bank. Edited October 10, 2023 by Werthead Kalbear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 4 hours ago, Ran said: , the U.S. has just been better than everyone else at it. For good and for ill. thast a lie, and very very insulting, and very ingorant Crixus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 4 hours ago, SeanF said: That’s the point. The West - by which I mean the US and its allies - has plenty of faults, but consider the alternatives. Russia, China, IS, Hamas etc. i would preffer china imeprialism thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 7 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said: i would preffer china imeprialism thank you very much I don’t see the appeal of it. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 6 minutes ago, SeanF said: I don’t see the appeal of it. i know this is off topic but i wiil say...you are form england no? well people who have been victims of us imperialism dont hold it in much regard. the usa has a lot of responsability on why people are escaping their countries, they "helped" allot on making these countries so hard to live in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said: i know this is off topic but i wiil say...you are form england no? well people who have been victims of us imperialism dont hold it in much regard. the usa has a lot of responsability on why people are escaping their countries, they "helped" allot on making these countries so hard to live in And… therefore… Chinese imperialism is a good thing… why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: And… therefore… Chinese imperialism is a good thing… why? why do you always ask these strange questions? i didnt say that chinese imperialism is a good thing, a said that given how the chinese are doing their imperialism (loaning money to build infraestructure, with forgiving interest rates, etc.) i prefer that type of imperialism to how the usa does it. China didnt overthrow goverments across latin america, asia, middle east and africa. and i will say that i would prefer no country intervention be it china or the usa or some european country. and will also say that what the chinese are doing to de uyghur is horrible and unjustifiable. Edited October 11, 2023 by Conflicting Thought dbergkvist, Crixus and Ser Scot A Ellison 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said: thast a lie, and very very insulting, and very ingorant Fairly sure Ran was talking about the economic growth side of imperialism not strictly the might makes right. Go back and read the full post again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, mcbigski said: Fairly sure Ran was talking about the economic growth side of imperialism not strictly the might makes right. Go back and read the full post again? i read it right, that economic "progress" is a very tricky thing. first if there was any aconomic progress it was in spite of imperlialism. and i know that when you or ran say progress you mean capitalist economic progress, that GDP grow baby! that beautifull concentration of money and power, that espectaular growth that yall love so much that doesnt go to the people almost always goes to international companies, so if we could grow (and its not at all clear that the gowth was in all countries, i mean why are people going to the usa if their countries grew so much) we did it with the handicap of your colonization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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