Israel - Hamas War IV

[Ran]

19 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

is the argument you're making that you could make Gaza a state effectively right 'now' and then incorporate something of the West Bank into it at some future point, maybe? 

"Now", no, Hamas needs to be gone, Gazans will need to elect new leadership, and that leadership will have to not have its charter push for "between the river and the sea" or the destruction of Israel, but one can dream.

But I think Israel proposing statehood for Gaza if their government is willing to accept the 1967 borders vis-a-vis Gaza seems like maybe it could be something?

The "solve" of the "right of return" is that the refugees in Gaza would become citizens of Palestinian Gaza. With a state comes citizenship, which is what most of them want. As the Yglesias article noted, if the world opened its doors to Palestinians from Gaza emigrating elsewhere with naturalization as a possibility, a lot of Palestinians would probably choose to take that opportunity, which of course causes a problem when the Arab world cares more about the Palestinian cause than the well-being of the Palestinian people. But a Palestinian Gaza would triangulate between those things, at least for Gazans.

Personally, I'd extend the right of return to anyone born prior to 1967 and a spouse (if born after) and who was born in the lands now considered part of Israel, which would amount to no more than 6.5% of the current population of Gaza, and probably less as I suppose some would rather stay with their extended families even if given generous housing and other financail support. While it'd be importing a social burden, technically speaking, it might win good will to basically say that, hey, you too come from this land of milk and honey and deserve to end your exile and come home. And by extending it only to older people, the concern about demographics goes away.

But this may be speaking as someone who has family who are exiles from their own homeland. For the most part, only the older generation who were born there actually dream of going back to the land of their birth. Us younger folk, it's a foreign country, not really our homeland. I know the conflict and dynamics are different here, but as I said, I think if citizenship somewhere safe was a possibility, I suspect a lot of Gazans would go for it.

ETA: Of course, none of the above "solves" the West Bank. That is a far thornier problem

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Bironic]

53 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So if two people have 4 kids, and one gets killed (before the person reproduces), it's not murder, because their level of reproduction results in population growth, even in light of the early death of said person?

I strongly recommend you look up the definition of genocide, moreso because Israel's illegal actions projected at the palestinians of Gaza had been formally coined as genocide by the UN.

There is a distinction between murder and genocide… genocide involves a reduction of the population by mass murder, removal of children, preventing procreation, sexual violence, forced starvation… none of that happens in either Gaza or the West Bank(not saying here that Israel as an occupying force has the moral high ground and is without blame or that living in Gaza is a piece of cake) but it’s not genocide…

For example Morocco is illegally occupying western saharan territory (like Israel does), has built an extensive border wall to keep out sahraoui freedom fighters out (like israel does) a lot of sahraouis live in refugee camps(like a lot of the palestinians), now does Morocco genocide that Sahraouis: No. Is it right legally or morally what they do to them no... but it's not a genocide...

The UN is quite a flawed Gremium so I wouldn’t put too much credit on what they say, sometimes they’re right and sometimes not…

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bironic

[Tywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I think you're kind of missing the point that at least via actions both groups appear to want ethnic cleansing and or genocide.

Not really. In the simplest terms, one side says they want the other to die and the other says come fuck around and find out and usually overreacts, which in turn leads to even more rightwing elected officials to my disappointment. 

[Daeron the Daring]

40 minutes ago, Bironic said:

There is a distinction between murder and genocide…

Just as there is a distinction between a group of 2 and 2 million.

40 minutes ago, Bironic said:

genocide involves a reduction of the population

It does not. It's not an absolute requirement to genocide.

A yearly timeframe is an arbitrary measurement like any other timeframe, because then I can come in and say that "Well, actually, in the X'th minute of the Y'th hour of the Z'th day of the year W, the number of palestinians declined, hence why it's genocide.", and it would be a dumb argument, altough I could most certainly find a minute of the past decades that would fall into this category.

I'm not sure if that's why the reduction of the population in a given timeframe isn't a requirement or not, but it's not a must have. Period.

'Genocide' is simply a much broader term than what you imply. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not really.

Why does Smotrich call himself a fascist and why was he appointed to govern the West Bank as the rate of settler terrorism has increased?

And why does Israel continue to build settlements and does the current government say Palestinians are of the jungle and children of the darkness?

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

one side says they want the other to die and the other says come fuck around and find out and usually overreacts, which in turn leads to even more rightwing elected officials to my disappointment. 

And those right wing do and want to do what to the other side?

 

[Zorral]

Be accurate: some people on both sides want genocide.  The majority of the Israelis and Palestinians do not wish genocide on each other.

The US did everything it could to wipe out the First Peoples' population.  Disease helped them so very very very much from the first go. Forbidding their use of their own language and customs and cultural practices was the second go.  All along it was actual, literal killing, and not just the people but the animals and environments upon which their survival depended.  There was also kidnapping and forced separation of other kinds from their families, groups, and clans.  The idea was that that whomever were left would just ... disappear, become part of the oppressing population.  Yet!  And yet! there are still Native nations, Native languages, and even Native PEOPLE!

So sure, that wasn't genocide, was it.

Genocide didn't happen to the Armenians either, coz, guess what, there are still Armenians!  Just like after the genocide of the Holocaust, there are still Jews!  so, no, no genocide, I guess?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Zorral

[JGP]

15 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Be accurate: some people on both sides want genocide.  The majority of the Israelis and Palestinians do not wish genocide on each other.

The US did everything it could to wipe out the First Peoples' population.  Disease helped them so very very very much from the first go. Forbidding their use of their own language and customs and cultural practices was the second go.  All along it was actual, literal killing, and not just the people but the animals and environments upon which their survival depended.  There was also kidnapping and forced separation of other kinds from their families, groups, and clans.  The idea was that that whomever were left would just ... disappear, become part of the oppressing population.  Yet!  And yet! there are still Native nations, Native languages, and even Native PEOPLE!

So sure, that wasn't genocide, was it.

Genocide didn't happen to the Armenians either, coz, guess what, there are still Armenians!  Just like after the genocide of the Holocaust, there are still Jews!  so, no, no genocide, I guess?

I well remember the sensitive Canadians that got bent by the label of genocide after the release of the MMIWG report. 

White people. 

We fragile.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

"Now", no, Hamas needs to be gone, Gazans will need to elect new leadership, and that leadership will have to not have its charter push for "between the river and the sea" or the destruction of Israel, but one can dream.

But I think Israel proposing statehood for Gaza if their government is willing to accept the 1967 borders vis-a-vis Gaza seems like maybe it could be something?

Yeah, by 'now' I mean after Hamas has been removed from power, and not waiting for the West Bank to negotiate and settle things with whomever becomes in power in Hamas. 

I can kind of squint at that and think that maybe that'll work on some levels, but I don't know that it really meets any goals of anyone. Israel isn't going to allow that Gazan country almost any autonomy for at least a decade, and that means more of the same. Palestinians aren't going to want to 'return' to that any time soon, either, for a variety of reasons. I don't think that Fatah or anyone else in the West Bank would want to govern it either, especially while the West Bank isn't resolved. 

I dunno. My feeling is that it might help mend tensions some, but I think a big problem is that it's effectively kicking the can down the road for the West Bank and making that problem even harder. I think Palestinians there would be very rightfully afraid that by doing this Israel would just delay forever any decision on the West Bank while continuing to increase settlements and cause atrocities, and could always claim 'you're welcome to emigrate to Palestine (Gaza) while you wait'. 

 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

You're not going to remove Hamas with a peace deal, at least that's what I suspect, hence why I fear this war could last a while and even if there's a ceasefire I doubt it will hold for long. Gaza has been bombed extensively, and that's not going to stop anytime soon unless some kind of unicorn deal happens. Hopefully one does, but as of right now I wouldn't bank on it.

I don't think anyone has suggested removing Hamas with a peace deal. I don't know who you're arguing with, but I wish you luck with it.

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And who controls the water and electoral system? That's not going to be given up easily which makes the situation that much thornier.

Sorry, are you saying that the Jews control the water and electoral system? Now who's peddling conspiracy theories? 

Gaza could be made significantly more self-sufficient than they are now. Israel has basically not allowed that to be the case, and Hamas has gleefully not pushed the issue. Building power plants and desalinization will take time, but it will take just as much time if not more to do it in the West Bank given it doesn't have the capacity for 2 million more people right away. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

True, I cannot say with absolute certainty it would stop the violence, I just think it's more likely to reduce it than the current structure. 

I don't think that the violence is particularly because there are Palestinians in Gaza. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

 The point is if you make both parts the new Palestinian state you just open up a whole new can of worms even if you assume Hamas fucks off.

Again, why? How is that particularly worse than what we have right now? I'm serious - you keep saying that having a Palestinian state that comprises both Gaza and parts of the West Bank is somehow fundamentally horrible and causes major problems, but you've never actually stated what those problems are. 

Again, do you really believe that the issue with Gaza is that Israel really wants that land? There's a reason that Israel pulled out their settlements in Gaza - because they don't care about it all that much. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I have no issue with the idea that Gaza becomes the new state, but they would have way less land and would be pretty isolated given how Egypt treats them. And again they would have to do a lot of rebuilding. With the WB they'd have way more space, new ready made housing, more ability to expand and a new neighbor that also has a large Palestinian population. It just seems more practical and at this point that's kind of what we need. And as I've said before after a period of peace and good relations the borders could be relaxed. 

Yeah, that's the Trump plan. 

The West Bank does have more space but if you're thinking that 200k homes are going to be 'ready made' for 2 million people, well, you might want to check your math there. 

But I guess it's mostly because you think it has to be one or the other, and I just don't subscribe to that interpretation. I don't see why the people in Gaza can't live in Gaza if they want to, and don't particularly understand the objections to a Palestinian state that is non-contiguous. 

[Tywin et al.]

@Kalnak the Magnificent, do you actually read posts? Because there are several points you've asked me to clarify that I've written about in detail numerous times. 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Repeating the same failed approach is just going to yield similar results.

Oh, the irony.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

@Kalnak the Magnificent, do you actually read posts? Because there are several points you've asked me to clarify that I've written about in detail numerous times. 

I do! And I've read your posts several times and fail to see any explanation on what specific 'more problems' this is likely to cause, or why you have such a fixation on Gaza being the real problem. Which is why I asked. And the answers you've provided - like that there are going to be ready made homes in the West bank which would be one tenth of the needed housing - haven't been particularly well thought out.

And when pressed, you've gotten frustrated and demanded that the other person provide a solution - a very common deflecting tactic that does not address criticisms and seeks to shut down discourse. 

It might just be that things are really hard to solve and simple solutions aren't going to work. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It for many is. After all they’re(Palestinian) are children of darkness, and  of the jungle.

That doesn’t really track…an unsuccessful attempt at genocide or even just a desire for it isnt negated if the genocide isn’t successful.

also other definitions of genocide include things that’s not just killing everyone or even most people of a group.

I would legit wonder about those numbers being due to lack of reporting or fudging of reporting by Hamas.
Where are you pulling from? Because I also googled it and the United Nations places the average MDR for the West Bank and Gaza altogether. 

Look, there were individuals in these threads who repeatedly said Israel wouldn’t rest until they killed every single Palestinian in Gaza, and the fact is that in the last 18 years that simply isn’t true. Why would they start now? Kal makes a good point about other kinds of genocide, but the top article when I googled about Palestinians in the world comes from arabcenterdc.org and says there are nearly 7 M Palestinians in the diaspora, mainly living in Arab countries. Jews lived for centuries in the diaspora and didn’t disappear, why would Palestinians? Again, I refer you back to some of Kal’s posts in this thread about the strength and resiliency of the Palestinian people. And in any event, Israel isn’t going to move Jews into Gaza anytime soon if ever, (ie never), and Palestinians are going to continue to live there.

As for the maternal deaths, I googled Maternal Death rates and a chart came up showing the rate in every country around the world (holy shit, the numbers are horrific in some countries). There was a year by year breakdown starting from 2010, I think, maybe earlier, and the number in Gaza was 40, but it improved every year while the US number has worsened every year. Canada has just bumped up to 11, truly terrible, I think Australia is less than 1, and I keep seeing articles that say the health care system in Poland is better than that of Canada, and fuck, their rate is 2, so in terms of women’s health I have to agree.

[Tywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I do! And I've read your posts several times and fail to see any explanation on what specific 'more problems' this is likely to cause, or why you have such a fixation on Gaza being the real problem. Which is why I asked. And the answers you've provided - like that there are going to be ready made homes in the West bank which would be one tenth of the needed housing - haven't been particularly well thought out.

Then you must have missed the dozens of times I've also said we need international aid from countries in the region, including reparations from Israel, along with aid from the US and Europe to build up the WB so it's viable.

Sorry you went to the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good. 

Quote

And when pressed, you've gotten frustrated and demanded that the other person provide a solution - a very common deflecting tactic that does not address criticisms and seeks to shut down discourse. 

It might just be that things are really hard to solve and simple solutions aren't going to work. 

No, I've written in detail a few different possible solutions. What I've said when people disagree with them is to suggest their own ideas that are within reason. 

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Be accurate: some people on both sides want genocide.  The majority of the Israelis and Palestinians do not wish genocide on each other.

The US did everything it could to wipe out the First Peoples' population.  Disease helped them so very very very much from the first go. Forbidding their use of their own language and customs and cultural practices was the second go.  All along it was actual, literal killing, and not just the people but the animals and environments upon which their survival depended.  There was also kidnapping and forced separation of other kinds from their families, groups, and clans.  The idea was that that whomever were left would just ... disappear, become part of the oppressing population.  Yet!  And yet! there are still Native nations, Native languages, and even Native PEOPLE!

So sure, that wasn't genocide, was it.

Genocide didn't happen to the Armenians either, coz, guess what, there are still Armenians!  Just like after the genocide of the Holocaust, there are still Jews!  so, no, no genocide, I guess?

Anyone who doesn’t think that attempted genocide was real in North America is an idiot. On the bright side of things, I do believe I’ve read there are now more indigenous people (at least in Canada) than there were when the Europeans showed up.

Of course, now climate change is threatening to destroy not only their culture but cultures in places around the world.

[GrimTuesday]

To go back to the conversation about Gazans overthrowing Hamas, I think people don't understand anything other than living in the Imperial core. To throw off a government is not an easy thing to do, in part because they generally have more guns and trained fighters than you, and also because of internal complications. When you ring your hands about Gazans choosing Hamas over Fatah/the PA, you have to understand that the people of Gaza can see what happens in the West Bank, where the PA has basically become a puppet for the Israeli government. Rather than protect its people, the PA collaborates with the IDF and hands over Palestinians rather than protecting them from the violence of the Israeli state.

What it comes down to is similar to what we see in Turkey, where as much as many dislike Erdoğan, many Turks would rather him than Fethullah Gulen because Gulen is a CIA plant. It's better to go with the person who you feel is looking out for your interests, even if that is not going to lead a better life (Not that Gulen would be better than Erdoğan) or a less brutal government, but because at least you know that when the chips are down, in many people's eyes, they're not serving another master.

I also saw someone say that Hamas violently threw Fatah/The PA out of Gaza. While it is true there was something of a civil war and that Hamas won, that was not a conflict that was started by Hamas. The US under the Bush Administration had called for elections in Gaza despite the warnings from Fatah that they were not prepared and would almost certainly lose. The Bush Administration being the Bush Administration ignored this and kept on pushing for it. Of Course as we all know, Fatah got wiped and instead of accepting it and moving on with the situation they created the US armed Fatah and tried to take it back by force. That is what cause the civil war in Gaza.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Then you must have missed the dozens of times I've also said we need international aid from countries in the region, including reparations from Israel, along with aid from the US and Europe to build up the WB so it's viable.

Which you need to do anyway, and in no way explains the supposed problems you have with Gaza being one of the parts of Palestine. 

As we found out much to our detriment money ain't enough. It in a lot of ways makes things worse. The US believed (and so did I) that simple economic prosperity would solve all ills but that really isn't the case. You need ro have the longer traditions of safety, security, a middle class, an economic sustaining base, and a culture and leadership that wants to improve - and a whole lot of that is not what people with money are interested in.

But aside from that I don't know how that changes if you have Gaza. Gaza makes things cheaper, it makes people less pissed off, it makes shipping easier, it makes logistics easier. 

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Sorry you went to the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good. 

Me too, especially since I'm not ant sized 

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, I've written in detail a few different possible solutions. What I've said when people disagree with them is to suggest their own ideas that are within reason. 

Okay - as I said your idea is the Trump plan. I think it might even be worse because it didnt give up gaza. I want you to really think about that for a hit and ask yourself if you think that kuahner and Trump came up with a plan that is actually a good one or not. And you can also go and read their plan and the criticisms that Palestinians had and get back to us.

[SeanF]

There are some Israelis who would *like* to carry out genocide of the Palestinians (and vice versa).

But, nothing the Israelis have done amounts to genocide, legally.

[Bironic]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Just as there is a distinction between a group of 2 and 2 million.

It does not. It's not an absolute requirement to genocide.

A yearly timeframe is an arbitrary measurement like any other timeframe, because then I can come in and say that "Well, actually, in the X'th minute of the Y'th hour of the Z'th day of the year W, the number of palestinians declined, hence why it's genocide.", and it would be a dumb argument, altough I could most certainly find a minute of the past decades that would fall into this category.

I'm not sure if that's why the reduction of the population in a given timeframe isn't a requirement or not, but it's not a must have. Period.

'Genocide' is simply a much broader term than what you imply. 

You have ignored all the other requirements of genocide that I listed in my post and are set not by me but by the UN and are also accepted by most historians…